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okay so two is out everybody is talking about what a cool video app this is kip and i wanna tell you why sorta two and open ai have just killed social networks tiktok instagram meta they're all gone and it's not for the reason you think we're gonna bring you through the best features why this app is on fire and tell you why this app could be the end of social networks as we know it all of that more on this episode of marketing against the grain we're here today we're talking you about sword two and sword two is the next generation of open eyes video model but kieran they did something very different they made it a standalone application and not only is it just like an interesting better updated video model we'll talk about that but they've also are turning into a social network right right we're gonna show some of the videos i think by now you've maybe seen some of the videos if you haven't we're gonna show you some of the funny videos that you can do with that very similar to v o three eight seconds but i wanna call out some of the real interest in things that they have done here and so sort to the app is basically a quote unquote tiktok clone yeah an ai tiktok clone but there's some interesting in things they have done to figure out problems that other apps like v three have had and so when you log on to sorta two one of the things you'll do is you know when you got a new apple phone you're doing the whole thing yeah it clones you so you create an ai model of yourself now the other smart thing they have done and i'm gonna go into why that's so smart just as part of the onboard and process the other smart thing they have done is they get you to say three words and so they clone your voice so prior to needing to do this you would have had to go and do this with different tools right you would have had to go clone yourself with h agent and then go use eleven laps you come into sword two you create an ai model of yourself then you can create an ai voice clone your own voice and then you can say now i'm gonna create content with myself or based upon permissions you set any other person who's part of the network vine include you in one of my videos you get automatically tagged such a cool mechanics when that video goes live right it's a clever very clever marketing it's engineer led marketing because they have figured out viral vitality like this whole network they've created like a community around the process of create an ai which v three never had right and the other thing that they've managed to do is they've solve character consistency because what have i said about v three it's eight second clips and it's really hard to maintain character consistency across those eight seconds but now this network has a bunch of ai clones and so the character consistency is always the same because you're tagging and using those clones so some alt today is probably the most mean human there has ever been ever ever maybe that's what he wanted i thought this tweet from friend of the todd we need to get a new back on here a new at la i like how you signed it up ripped to owning your likeness so one of the things that's interesting about this is that when facebook started what they actually did was they got your social graph and they mapped your social graph and then they were able to sell ads on top of your social graph this is like the next derivative of that karen where right now it says you own your likeness but they also in the terms of service have the ability to update their terms of service so like how much of your likeness do you actually own and this is gonna freak a bunch of people out right well neither of us yet have access to sword two but i have done a lot of dig in i do think you own your likeness because i think you have to set permissions to allow people to use that within the app so i can basically say you use content i'm allowed to use my ai model or i suspect i can actually set permissions to allow other people to use the model and so what is this set up for well how easy is it now to add payments yes which they announced a stripe partnership to do that right they're gonna do a ton of payments for likeness and all that kind of stuff right right so now i'm in the app and i can say i'm gonna pay kip money to use his likeness miss in my video and then what else have they just hired they've hired someone to build a paid ad platform so now i have payments to use creators in my video their ai models and now i have someone working on my pay platform and so it does make a ton of sense i would actually say that this tweet maybe is wrong in that you will own your likeness and you could probably monetize it within the app well i think the question is is how much do you actually own and what how much do they own and i think she's kinda pushing on it's new but i think you would a a new agree on a few things that like the viral growth loop around this app is very very good the onboarding is good the cameo feature does make it very accessible highly mimic and like creates a new class of creators i think is generally right i also just as a complete eye here i think that it's hilarious that the world thinks open ai cares about b2b b use cases when they're out like trying to take meta yeah you know it's like there's a whole sub thread about oh open the is doing sales prospecting and stuff it's like they don't give a shit about that now they're they're doing this come on i think open ai probably have a wall and it's like if you are not a hundred billion dollar idea you don't even make the starting in point of like a product that's worth doing yeah the all the b2b b stuff it's just the aws they're just like cool we're gonna be aws for that and then all the consumer stuff they're like great we're gonna take down meta and tiktok and everybody else the big viral vitality loop here the thing they've done different is the cameo feature which is when you've cloned yourself and you've set permissions in a certain way you can use that likeness in any video so obviously sam has created a version of himself and has allowed anyone to use that likeness within any video so this was the number one trend in video yeah five billion views on this video on x right which was him stealing gpus and target or one of those it does make you think like how do you even become a creator in this era you only really are valuable if people already know your likeness mh definitely an incredible tool to create a ton of ai swap and who doesn't love the ai swap ai swap is a term people have kind of been calling it which is just sugar for your brain look video has the highest roi of any marketing channel we all know this but most marketers don't use it because it's expensive and slow now with google v three you can create professional marketing videos in minutes no crew no budget just a prompt we put together a guide that shows you exactly how to do it the prompt and structure wheel examples and actual outputs it's got everything you need to start creating videos with ai get it right now click the link in the description now let's get back to the show so the kinda like recap where we are i think the onboarding process really cool creating the ai model very cool creating a clone of your voice very cool the cameo feature really is the standard up feature for me that you can easily use your own likeness and get consistency across every video or i can use someone else's likeness and i can get consistency across every video i think again it's super smart for sam to launch and allow anyone to create a video with his likeness so one of the things i'm did wanna show here is i did find a good side by side of sore one versus soar because we haven't actually talk that much about like cool like is the video actually better or is it just a social app yeah they did make a meaningfully better video product right it's so much better and like like a pretty good side by side and so they did make a cr better video model yeah and i suspect as marketers as business owners founders but using this video model via api and other things but the sorta app itself is clearly a consumer play yeah i think because of the consistency like if i show you a little clip from their launch video because of the ability to do the consistency across clips so if you look at their launch video because it works on the ai model where you've cloned yourself look how detailed this is right it's really good look at the lighten on the hair look at every aspect of the face this to me is the big unlock is that you're able to scan yourself and so the consistency across clips you could still tell with like the lip syncing in the mouth and stuff that it's ai and it's yeah like we're not here hype this up it is definitely a meaningful step for this is still good fix are way better in the character consistency way better yeah again it keeps that consistency people were saying it's really easy to tell it's not sam because it has so much more energy sand trying take over the world for free brutal while it's great for a ceo like sam because he can be in all these ads and he doesn't have to be in the ad he is them now the most meme person ever right that's the thing i would like really keeping in your brain as like you can not create any of these videos you could clone your entire exact team and have them in all of your ads and never have to actually ask them to be in any of the ads i think that's huge i agree i do want to talk about the application the use case what do people need to care about and how should they think about sorta two now that we've kinda of broken down everything that's happening i thought greg guys berg had a bunch of takes on x greg's coming on the show soon i think his first take i actually agree with someone will buy a synthetic sword two style account for ten million dollars or more somebody's going to create a really popular account because they're gonna be really creative at coming up with memes and cultural influences what's i think on the sword two platform but it will to those other players i want platform like tiktok or something they'll have to buy this order to count mh but it will be because it's popular across all the video sharing accounts this my is what i believe the reason for that and like the big shift that i think is really hard for most people to get their head around kieran is that right now a meme is like taking this thing that happened in culture and packaging it in multitude of funny ways right somebody is going to create right like manufacture the thing that happened in culture wouldn't even happen they're gonna manufacture such up to absurd things but they're still rooted in realism that it's going to really touch people sense of humor right and like creativity and it's gonna be kind of a new form of art and created them i really do believe that right yeah i think like proactive memes where the entire thing came from the meme itself it is a hundred percent in form of creation i like that he's like there's an opportunity to created non ai instagram you and i were what's happening about this the social web looks very different when it's just like ai slope everywhere right i i want your take on this i don't think i'd a good thing yeah i don't think it's a good i just don't think it's a good thing if you give people something they're going to do it on mass and only a small percentage of those people are good at it and so for the most part it's going to be awful i wouldn't be surprised to see elon dan weight yeah a ton of that ai video within x i've always thought that ai is going to push people towards more human to human experiences i agree with it and so i could see a social network where you have to which i think is very controversial at the moon actually but you have to validate yourself yes and you have to verify that you're real and that be in a a pretty popular place to hang out because i find the ai stuff cool i love creating it do i think that there is any value in me sitting there for hours consuming at no it rot your brain i think in some ways we're going to push to the far end of what's been happening on the internet over the last twenty years yeah which worries you know right and like with the marginal cost of making anything comes to zero a song a video a painting whatever then what is a value exactly you know there's always two ends of the spectrum right like if the cost to create something marginal cost is zero yeah and the skill and expertise kinda gets washed out then what's the other side of that and reason we're talking about this on the show because we talk about marketing stuff show is the other side of this is where marketing is gonna shine mh right companies that can deliver you know in the early days it'll be like the cool brands that are early on sorta and do some clever stuff but you know greg's here being like feeds are gonna be unrecognizable in three months i don't know if it's three months but it's probably three to twelve months so as a company as a business how are you gonna stand out and some people are gonna build armies of these ai creators and some people are going to try to bring humans back together and both will probably wind in their own way well i don't know what the incentive is for social platforms to allow this to happen on masks yeah the reality is they're trying to drive usage and impressions to allow advertisers to sell ads against and so i don't think there's value in this kind content being the dominant content on like x or linkedin or any of these places because they actually need to drive real human usage and i think this stuff actually probably does not improve usage over the long term it actually makes the defeats much much no so there's like two parts of me i love these tools because it unlocks creativity and i think korean things is the best thing in the world making things matter like be able to craft things create things yeah i think so yeah it's just it makes you happy right do i want to have my entire online experience dominated by ai created s no you know a good example of that is i freaking cannot understand why people have decided that autumn i know i'm like i talked about this on mass online you know we have ai and there's people who think automating in my comments on linkedin is a good thing to do with ai and there are people like that who like i can use this to scale it and really and that's a really good example i like linkedin you don't like it as much but there's actually a good conversation on there but the ai common have already ruined that conversation i it drives me nuts i have some guy who like has set his little agent to like everything i do it's weird it's scary if is like what is wrong with these people i don't know the value like i think that person's in idiot india i can see their comments i'm like wow that person like sucks i would never even interact that person this is a very important point right the best marketers throughout human history have been able to either go counter culture or tap into culture and a lot of ai is enabling bad marketers to just like be culturally irrelevant like to like everything you do is like culturally irrelevant right it's like there's no signal yeah it's lazy mark anybody watching don't do those things also i think i think we're just not ready for the implications i mean i'm we're to the part of the show where i'm just gonna talk about all the weird stuff but it's like what does this mean for death like if i've got like this model of me that you can create a video of me doing or saying whatever like yeah what does that do for yeah it's weird like because of death and how you own how these accounts and your likeness exists after your like it's just humanity is not yet paired from where we are currently heading are and we'll get there and we'll evolve and change but it's gonna be a real mind twister to get there yeah well what is the value like a creator today or like an influencer a creator their value is a value because they probably pick and choose the things that they do what is the value of a creator or when instead of that person being in five videos because that's who is able to pay them that amount of money to be in those videos i can do the long tail and so i can be in five thousand videos but like how quickly do humans get bored of that person because we're in five thousand videos one of the core things about people is we get bored of things very very quickly and i think that that time is shrinking with all of this stuff right and our attention span is like okay well i'm bored of this move on to the next one and i think that's one of the downsides of this is that it's just harder to like stand that for longer right if you start to license out yourself to allow it to be created on mass like i'm already ordered to some out i've seen them in every single video of might ex feet yeah it it used to be fifteen minutes of fame now it's fifteen seconds of fame yeah usually fifty minutes of fame right and you were in like four or five things and now five seconds in fame and you're in a million things right because you can scale that thing instantly and i think that's problematic totally you can get over saturated in a way that's just insane now right exactly there's gonna be a backlash against sam just because he's in this stuff thing about that is i just like he's a serious guy that stuff is on the internet forever i know but i guess like you have to be a user of your own technology i don't know i think the cl in thing and making it so easy to do clone in that scale i think is like huge development here and i don't know the implications but i think it's pretty sizable i think people are going to miss how sizable that cameo tool is yeah i think it is going to disrupt social networks i don't know if it's for the good or for the bad and it's very early to see it's a hundred percent for the bat have you seen anything good about social networks over the past two years we're going down a different path here but like they have not have gotten gradually worse no i i understand well and by the way what's interesting just as an aside is that you have meta open kinda competing on opposite paths is like open eye eyes coming and launching sur two and this week the meta ray band displays come out with meta deeper into hardware kinda competing where open ai and johnny and i wanna go which just just a closing aside you have to schedule a twenty five minute demo at best buy to buy the ray band displays they really wanna sell you in the value of them they wanna improve their retention they really want you to know how to use those things and they really wanna limit the number of pairs out there yeah i think that's a smart thing to do because you want to make it feel like it's special but you also want people to use them correct which is kind of the opposite way of what sort of two going so i'm i'm very interested to see how the next six to twelve months play out and all this yeah look i will be happily online when i get my access creating lots of slap all over the place so it's not as if i'm not gonna use that too we will do a whole sorta two deep dive show and we'll make videos and we'll talk about the marketing use cases the social network potential all of those things but i don't know i think you and i just felt compelled to come in talk a little bit about the launch the improvement of technology but more so like the impact on marketers social media the internet of what we think is going to happen here right right social media marketer should just be a prompt engineer it's quickly moving in that direction yeah alright well this has been a wild show i think both of our brains hurt i think this is probably going to be another chat gp launch kind of moment where people will look back and be like oh remember like when everybody recorded their own video it's gonna be kinda of wild i'm a little bit of a loss for where the world is going from here and i think that's where you and i kinda land but we're gonna keep figuring out and we're gonna evolve right there with you all i hope you enjoy the show today we'll see real soon on marketing its screen

everyone welcome to a special in person marking it's the grain i'm your host kip wagner and i'm here with the one and only meal patel neil you have a special presentation that you're given here at hubspot in bail twenty twenty five where you've done a massive amount of research you got a bunch of data on marketing tactics to help people get better results from the marketing and i wanna kinda do a greatest hits i can't we obviously don't one is the whole talk but the most important ones i was hoping that we would share with the marketing against the great crew yeah so one of the ones that we see is the companies that are leveraging ge or ais or whatever you wanna end up calling we're calling a at hubspot a like ai engine optimization we're answer engine optimization it kinda works for both but ae as well alright so let's call it ae right now so with ae we're seeing it driving a fraction of the traffic so when you look at traditional organic search a lot of the websites that we had in the study that were included they're were getting anywhere from call eleven percent to in the low twenty percent from organic search for b b versus b c yeah for a o for both b b and b c it was less than a percent of traffic of traffic yep okay okay but it was no less than fifty percent of the conversion that they're were getting from organic yes we're were fighting that too i i would share like we did a study on our own traffic and a visit from an ae like chat g complexity versus traditional google search converts it a customer at thirteen x the rate of traditional google church which kind of line with what you're applying right and we're seeing a broad range sometimes it's eight nine x sometimes it's twelve thirteen sometimes it's twenty a lot it depends on how you're optimizing for it you're optimizing for that traffic specifically you're gonna be up at that higher totally rate and what we found is because it's so intent driven just the conversions are extremely high because someone's doing research on the platform and normally when you do a traditional google search you're clicking through a tons of different links you're doing your research and then you're figuring out what you wanna do in the platforms and the l you're doing all your research in platform you're clicking through when you wanna take a action i know that this is i've got the answer for me and i wanna go do something about it yes the way i talk about it is like used to get answers now you take action from answers to action and another interesting thing that we see with companies doing marketing is you know especially here at inbound i've talked a lot of companies today and a lot of them are trying to pull back on their blogging efforts because they're just like oh we don't get as much google traffic it's not worth as investing as much but buy have data that i show with chad per p google a overuse the top source that pretty much all these a are pulling from is blogs so it's like yes you may not get the traffic that you once did but if you're not creating content and getting citations in other blogs you're gonna miss out on a whole traffic from these ai platforms yeah so we're seeing that too where all the things you did for traditional search still matter yes you need to do new things on top of that to get properly cited and recommended by the ll in the new ai search yeah like have a comparison of ae o versus seo in my presentation and it's almost like a circle but it's highlighting the different point so it's not really a circle because not every aspect content creation is a ten for importance level for seo versus ae but like things like links really matter in seo but ae really only cares about citations versus links right seo cares about content and quality and length in some cases i love u yep but ae cares a lot about how the content is structured right so what we like to say is you create content in today's world for humans but you package it for ai yeah we were moving for a we made content just for humans then now we're making it for humans and robots that's right right and you know i have the stat in my presentation video has way more consumption than any other content format which everyone knows because social is where really people consume their content and it's even more when you look at time on platform form versus like a chat gp so people are like oh videos where it's at but with ai yes you should create video for all the social platforms out there and ai some of them have deals with some of these social platforms that are pulling and they're trying to dissect information but we still see them pulling from text more than anything else by far yeah what we have seen is similar text really matters if it's a new topic where the text is more limited they'll often pull in videos like we've even seen that for like the podcast right like if we're talking about a new product or feature that just came out with like one of the l like what kieran did a deep sea cap so there wasn't that much out there so like they're pulling in that video and sometimes a a video is like a value add it's thought that you shouldn't do video but video can't replace text i think is the point that you're making the that's right and mh video is still important because it builds a deeper relationship which is why you guys do videos podcasts and even in person events which are amazing yeah but we looked at long form videos and the average watch type if you add up linkedin facebook instagram tiktok youtube has a higher average watch time for the same piece of content than if you add up all those networks combined by far and it actually beats it by more than double even if you added tomorrow that is actually the least surprising stat we've talked about because like youtube is just playing a different game than everybody else that comes to video but the issue that we're seeing when we talk to companies is they're focusing more on pushing their content on like instagram and facebook and tiktok is like look how many more views we're getting i'm like yes yes guys you look at the watch type and it's also how they count views it's very different from platform to platform youtube has just more engagement and what we've seen work better for a lot of companies is publish on youtube first promote harder because it constantly guys evergreen traffic versus the other platforms then go on the other platforms with the same piece of it i actually agree with you on that and i'd i actually you you might have data on this or not i don't know youtube is also i think the best to then monetize that engagement is by far the ad revenue is way better ad revenue versions yeah like when we put in call to actions within our videos to generate sales and then it's not all perfectly track but then when we ask the customers where you find us for the video content even when we add up the views youtube generates way more revenue even if the view count is a third it'll end up generating what we see is usually five x more than the other pocket because the conversion rate of the views to customers is just so much higher the engagement is there yes the engagement deeper and they're taking that next action on whatever the call action is at a much higher rate that's right yeah and the other thing that we're seeing it doesn't matter if it's ae o or seo or paid ads or social media we're seeing the sales cycle just really drag out and that trend is continuing interesting so i have a chart that breaks down by price point you know like sub hundred dollars hundred to like five hundred five hundred to like a thousand thousand to ten thousand ten thousand above for both b to b and b before you know never everyone wanna talk about the rule of seven engage with the brand seven times online to much more likely to convert we're seeing the average touch point now being somewhere around the eleven that's increasing too why do you think pause me at least some thought there we don't have data on why but our assumption here when we look is there's way more competitors for any type of business there's less mo because of ai and technology and how cheap it is to get things started so just people are these products services aren't very different yes and if you look at business okay people are starting to create copycat cats at cheaper price points and this isn't because i know you being quite frank you guys actually have a lot of copycat cats that are much cheaper in price point we have at our ad agency n mp digital thousand plus people much smarter than you guys were in thirty something countries at this point where we have people twenty something where we have offices majority of our customers will still choose you over the lower cost alternatives right brands support community ecosystem training there's a lot of other value ads that you can necessarily just look at a price point plus you guys have freemium them or slash free and a lot of stuff and you plug into a lot of other tools technology so there's a lot of other value add but what we found is in today's world a lot of people will pick the cheap alternatives and then when they realize they wanna create a real business let's say like a marketing software they realize it doesn't work the way they really need and oh i'm spending more money hiring consultants and all these head counts to help me out then just paying double or triple because yeah something may have been one third the price but you just spent five thousand dollars a month when you could just saved the five thousand dollars a month on consultants look neil just shared some wild data ae o traffic converts it thirteen times the rate of traditional search that's insane that's why our team just dropped the ultimate ai marketing playbook it's got six strategies that actually work from ai search optimization to intent engines it gives you the tools tactics and timelines you need to succeed get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description now let's get back to the show the illusion of total cost of ownership in the world is crazy right now because there's so much change in disruption and people just trying to comm down on price but those hidden costs are just everywhere yeah we used to use salesforce globally great tool the amount of money we were spending on consultants were so ridiculous we had to get off we ended up switching and you can guess to who but we ended up using hubspot because the cost of consultants were just extremely high the economics did not work out for us but going back to marketing to it back on track we're finding that the reason people need many more touch points is because of more players everyone's looking very similar because you can build apps so quickly with tools like lovable and stuff like that now and people are very price sensitive in this economy very but one interesting thing that we started seeing with ai in b2b b that's been a really interesting tent for a lot of our saas companies that we work with they're doing really well with ai because ai is dissect full cost and giving people breakdowns when you actually pay for a product what is it really cost which is a huge marketing angle because you can then go and create content on if you choose hubspot here's a real cost versus these x y and z companies and do comparison tables and ai loves comparison data comparison table yes then you use structured data make it easier from it starts spinning you out and then it shows analysis between you and the competition and it's a great way to pick a business and then you do that per category and use ai content to help you with that you can just generate a lot of revenue that's it's a good pro tip for kinda like lower the funnel okay i gotta ask you the question i've been asked the most here at inbound which is what's going on in the future marketing marketing feels like it's so different and it's changing so much like un wrap the crystal ball and tell us like if you're a marketer now what are the couple of things that are going to be happening that you should be focusing on in the future yeah so the big change that we're seeing because if you look at marketing the biggest spend is in advertising paying platforms like facebook and google you can see it on the earnings calls so people used to do full blown creative and marketing campaigns what i mean by that is like those squat potty videos or even lower low five versions of those where you're paying a few thousand dollars to five thousand it's huge hit miss we're now seeing everyone is going away from high quality production ex super bowl commercial and focusing on volume low ph content and just cranking out creative at mass scale but paying quite a few people whether it's on upwork or internal teams to come up with unique scripts and ideas for the content so in essence we're seeing a huge shift in marketing in which people aren't paying for creators anymore they're paying for idea radiation more even though ai can create it we're seeing humans create better ideas than ai but they're using ai to come up with it so you can test and mass quantity the second thing that we're seeing is corporations leveraging free tools they're taking that out of the hubspot playbook da talked about the on stage years ago where it's not freemium you guys go with free and that's really helped hubspot get off the ground but they're starting to do that in all sectors b to b you know b could be mortgage calculators or tools that help you analyze neighborhoods for schools or whatever if it if you're selling a home right b to b free versions of tool that lead into the bigger tool set that you're selling kinda like what you guys do with your grader and what we're finding with the tools is it's a cheaper form to acquire users than paying for ads with tools like lovable and all these a platforms is more easier than ever to crank out but here's a caveat we're seeing huge increases in leads lower conversions because the quality that's coming from the tools isn't as high but we're seeing on average ninety three percent more revenue because the total lead volume even with the decrease in enclosed rate is making up way more revenue in total you would call up the bridge problem how do you build the bridge from the free experience to the paid experience and when you could build that bridge yeah i can economics get really good but for a lot of markets you're pointing out there's just not a lot of great free resources and free tools out there and it's become easier and cheaper to build them and so doing that can get you a lot of volume in this changing world and there's a lot that a marketer can do there obviously and the the last big trend that yeah we're seeing and your audience is probably not gonna light this one oh no is people are actually going back to the old so if we look at the first six twenty twenty five everyone was about ai alright and everyone's like ai is hot i don't know what's gonna happen with all these applications do i even need a crm do even need to do email do i need a website people are really asking us why should we do seo why do we even need a website anymore and if we start looking from july to you know we're now in september we're seeing most of our conversations ai is cool but we need to go back to fundamentals like we see email and i believe the status is eleven x more than social from conversion now i get you're collecting a email lead from a lot of different channels but people don't talk about email anymore they really don't i know you guys do but the general marketing you know community does talk about no seo paid ads it's what's driving revenue ae is amazing companies need to leverage it it's not gonna drive fifty percent of revenue people for a while yeah so i still gotta grow a lot and they're saying google's done google's growing in search volume and we're seeing more usage on google ever than before and they're even reporting numbers of that and their earnings are showing that they're still growing at a healthy pace right and when you look at the overall marketing lens you know instagram is i believe the second most popular search engine they're at six point five billion daily searches we're now starting to see companies optimize be like even though we're b to b and very few people use instagram for b to b i think the number and i have it on my side i believe it's six percent of the usage from our study show that people are actually looking at b b content it's like oh when they perform a search on there even though they're searching for friends most of the time a lot of times are actually searching for content and information we need to be there because this is a huge revenue source it's ugly people don't wanna talk about it and it's on a lot of the channels but it drives a ton of revenue for corporations so your bike what's oldest new focus on email focus on the fragmented search market yes traditional search but youtube search instagram search where people are really spending their time especially if you're in b b and you might have maybe discounted it before yes and because the overall daily search volume is a little bit more than fifty billion depending on the sources you're looking at google at thirteen point six or thirteen point seven billion daily searches is that roughly twenty seven percent market share so there's this whole slew of other search engines like linkedin and youtube and instagram that all get billions of searches per day it's on business there's all stuff out and no one focuses on it where there's very high intent traffic that converts extremely well and companies are just ignoring because they're focusing on this shiny object of ai and not saying ignore the future we all know it's a future but you can't ignore the boring and ugly that is driving a ton of revenue and still growing you gotta have a good foundation while you innovate yes i love that neil thanks for being about thanks for joining us some marketing against again i think you just gave everybody a pro class in what matters today in the world of marketing shared some great data back examples thanks so much for joining us thanks for having thanks for being here everyone

today i'm gonna explain to you one of the most counter things that's happening in the ai world the thing is that businesses now want to do more than ever before with ai but they don't know how to do it and that's getting a massive opportunity for those who do know how to help businesses use ai today we're gonna break down not just this opportunity but how to go tackle it and build your own agency to actually run ai transformation for other companies and make a lot of money in the process alright first i'm going to show you how to set up an ai consulting business from scratch then kieran and i are gonna give you some insights and some real world examples around this opportunity and so when it comes to the world of ai things are changing dramatically and businesses they need a lot of help and if you're watching the show you're an ai early adopter and you are set up for success to help these businesses and what i wanna give you is four basic steps that you can go and do to build a really healthy ai consulting business the first of those steps are to define what you offer and what you sell and in this case it's ai consulting but it might be a more specific version i'm offering you know ai audit services it might be i am doing chat gp training or cloud training whatever it is you need to decide what that is get a clear description of it so that people who know nothing about ai can understand what you're gonna do to help them the second thing and a really important step is to understand who your ideal customer profile is how big is the company what industry are they in who are you targeting so for example you might say hey i'm going to offer these services to manufacturing companies that are between twenty and two hundred employees and my target is the head of marketing at that manufacturing company because i am doing ai consulting ai training for marketing use cases and so that would be you know your very basic ic and then you could use chat gp or what have you to basically build out you know what are their preferences where do they do research how are they basically gonna discover you so that you could market to them that's a whole other show we're gonna assume that you're watching the show you know the basics of marketing and you can get a handful of clients through either direct outreach or some marketing efforts now the big part for step number three i'm gonna give you everything you need to do this we're giving you prompts to run this ai consulting business we've got a great link you can hit the link in the description below we're giving you ten amazing prompts for free that would be the foundation of any business like this so for example regardless of who your ic is one of the things you're probably gonna wanna do is do ai transformation audit and help that company understand how they need to evolve or transform using ai so in this case literally all we're gonna do i've already done a version of prompt number one here where i've added in a fictitious business fresh harvest foods that basically takes that prompt and fill out the information that you would wanna fill up for it to actually fully execute so now that i put that prompt with the business information i'm just gonna put it right here in my chat at gp using basic gp five depending on what you gp you're using you could try different models but we're just gonna use the baseline version of gp five the great thing is super fast and so here's our audit like literally within seconds for fresh harvest food it says executive summary key findings high automation potential customer churn risks customer support bottlenecks forecasting gap quick wins available opportunities such as ai marketing personalization data entry automation and ai powered chat support our low complexity with immediate roi so these are things that if you're you know work with a client that you can give to them and this is they give summary that they can go sell into the rest of their management team that you can then go and help them with and so it's done process mapping across sales and marketing operations customer service what i love about this prompt particularly it gives you a full ai opportunity assessment basically what's the potential what are the tools you could use to do this how hard would it be for you to do this and what it thinks it's gonna save the client as well as the cost benefit math like this table alone for a business somebody would pay thousands of dollars for just this and it is in a quick prompt but this table leads you to like an ongoing ai service business that could easily be a hundred thousand dollars a year contract for a potential service offering for one of these companies then we've got a prioritization metrics we got you some quick wins of different things that you can do using hubspot use quickbooks etcetera then we've even got a ninety day implementation map so you can go to the client say hey do you wanna do these things oh great you do well here's how i would get started in the first ninety days i think the ninety day road maps a little thin so i'd probably go back and ask for some more details but now what's pretty amazing is that it says it's gonna save this company one point eight to two million dollars so what would they pay you to save that money i mean something like a hundred two hundred thousand dollars seems like a great deal especially considering that you're gonna break even within four to six months and what i love about gp five it's always also looking for the next best step to kinda help you keep going and get the answers you're looking for and so would you want me to build a detailed financial model with cost savings and breakeven even by quarter so you can just say yes and it will then go and take the next action prompting so you can kind of spend some time with gp five and get a really really robust report that's pretty awesome okay so it has built me an interactive model here so i could go in and actually just like i wouldn't excel change any of these values this is like feature it's first time i've seen this in chat gp the fact that you can expand the table i could download the table as a csv so all of this downloads in a csv that i can do in excel which is pretty freaking awesome and now i can say can you take this report and audit and give me a version in your canvas feature that is easy to edit and download so now here's the kicker canvas in chat gp is like a word processor like google docs but with ai so i can now go in here so i can go to edit mode and i can edit anything i want if i wanna change some numbers add my own thoughts my own points all that i can do that's sweet then i can close canvas and then once i'm done i can download it as a pdf or a document so if you want a pdf to send to a client you wanna put it in google docs so you can collaborate with a client it's super easy you don't even have to copy and paste it is remarkable how fast you can put together an awesome output and this is just one of the ten prompts you can easily build a really good business with these prompts and with this focus so i said we were gonna get to customer acquisition and to marketing when you're running a business like this you need to have a way to acquire customers we've got that awesome marketing playbook for you over on hubspot dot com if you go to loop marketing dot com it's free no form fills you can just go through and read everything you'd ever wanna know about doing marketing well in the ai era but it's got some great things like how do you partner with influencers how do you run personalized email campaigns how you use ai to create marketing materials really quickly and easily how do you start showing up in search results in chat gp and claude those are the types of things that if you're starting a business like this that you're gonna need to do to get found and get customers and so i highly recommend checking out loop marketing dot com and go into more detail but if you could just pick one basic channel maybe it's linkedin marketing maybe it's youtube videos maybe it's partnering with influencers you are going to be able to get the first handful of clients that you need to kinda test this out so that's it four easy steps to find what the service offering is choose your ideal customer profile use the ten free prompts that we're giving you i walked you through an amazing example and then go check out loop marketing dot com for everything you need to know about customer acquisition look the important thing for you to understand is that every business out there is scrambling for ai help right now they're trying to find consultants and services to guide them through this crazy transformation that's happening but there's still not enough of them yet i'm talking about a one hundred billion dollar market with basically pretty little competition so we built the one person agency stack this includes the ten prompts i show you to let you run enterprise level audits design custom workflows build training programs that actually work you can capitalize on this massive opportunity for yourself so you can get it right now you can scan the qr code you can click the link down in the description below i highly recommend the prompts they're awesome so somebody who's already taking this like ai transformation business and running with it is alex lieberman he had a great post on this and karen and i gotta break it down because it's gonna help you and how you think about building your own ai consulting business friend of the pod alex lieberman he had a post on x that i thought was really interesting this might go down as one of the most important but somewhat ironic tweets of this ai transformation era and he's basically like i can't hire fast enough for my ai transformation company is this company called ten labs that helps people adopt and transform ai and he's like basically begging people to apply and what ke this tells me is we need more humans than ever in this ai era and we need more humans to help other humans i've spent a bunch of time talking with folks about ai and they really want some real human hand holding are you seeing this is this something that is just seems like to me a massive opportunity one if you're a consultant to provide these services and two if you're a business and you're not moving as fast at ais as you want you probably need some of these services this is what the opt would have said right that there's just so much pent up demand for things that ai unlock so yes ai can help people ship much more code it can do works of engineers but there's an unlimited want for software there's an unlimited want for internal custom apps there's an unlimited want for ai work flows that you can integrate across your business but that is a very new skill set and there's just not enough humans who know how to do it i think the hardest thing isn't just like the building of the ai you really need to be an incredible systems from process thinker to figure out how to like integrate ai across things that are actually useful for your business and so yeah like i think the kinda weird thing is there's a lot of talk about how ai is gonna disrupt the human job market but for ai to be successful you need more humans than ever to do that work and i think that's what alex is fine and as you can't hire fast enough because the demand there's so much pent up demand for internal apps custom software or niche software there's so much software people want to build the reason it's not being built is because engineers are really expensive and really spa and if they become more plentiful it just means more things are gonna get built i would pause it to you that we talk about ae and we talk about the number of searches and questions going up on google that metric is not a metric of interest in stuff it's a leading indicator of like curiosity and abundance and what people want to do so you have to look at that like the google search volume going up which we've talked about a lot and say that also has to apply to all the things people want to do in their business and that means exactly what you're saying everybody is trying with this new technology to do more and more they see new opportunities that they would have never can considered before before ai because ai now makes them possible i could build these custom apps i could build these lightweight things i can build a workflow to actually do this thing that would have been too expensive or too hard before and that is transformative and it's opening up this whole new era of education where people are like great now i know this is possible but how do i go and actually do it right it's the two hard things are the known and what to automate with ai and want to integrate ai into knowing what to actually build and then knowing one how to enable folks who actually use those new things they're really the three core skills i know that's kinda what alex startup up is trying to solve we are so early there i'm not surprised this company is on fire there are such limited amount of folks who know how to do that at scale of four businesses literally well you have told me that there are people who are literally just taking things that we are teaching on marketing against grain on this show and just packaging them up into consulting services to help companies right and making hundreds of thousands of dollars is that right it is a huge opportunity right now if you have curiosity if you're technical if you know how to work with businesses there's just unlimited opportunity and being able to integrate ai across those businesses most businesses do not know where to start they're still like trying to figure out where do i even begin right and if you are a person you can help them go from zero to one in their ai adoption you can kinda print cash i've said before say this era if you were a smart curious person everything is at your disposal to have financial security and what alex is talking about is a prime example of that and the number one thing in having financial security is like being on the right side of the supply demand equation and what we're telling you is that there's a lot of demand for businesses to learn how to do ai and not enough supply to help them exactly i hope you found this really valuable if you did hit like it's subscribe we'll see you real soon on marketing against the great

hey everyone welcome to this episode of marketing against the grain today we are going through major major things that are happening in the market we've got updates from google jim and and agent browsing coming to chrome we're gonna talk to you about whether seo is dead and au is the next big thing we're gonna break down how p r is coming back in a big big way and we're gonna give you a blueprint to why ai transformation is the next big training and services unlock out there all of those right ahead for you on this episode of marketing against the grain alright kip i want to bring you through the latest launch from google because google are fresh out of their antitrust case they're ready to get going now so they come swing in they're ready to take down some companies they kinda replicated perplexed comment which i know you're a huge fan of i'm a big fan of complexity but they have disrupted search even more and they have added some functionality to the browser that i think changes completely how we use the web so you're basically saying once they got out of legal trouble they're taking it to complexity and they're going all in on chrome and trying to bring ai to chrome right chrome is an incredible front door for the average user to start to use ai and so expanded it to start to use gemini and as a no brainer but what i thought was really interesting about this launch it's just how much it changes the way we search but also we've already gone through the death of clicks we've talked about that and we're gonna talk about that in the future shows which is no one clicks anymore because get the answer from ai this is the death of web pages and i wanna give you my quick hot take of why i think this is the death of web pages so they have the ability now too just talk to chrome in the url box and one of the core features is when you are on a web page and you are talking to chrome chrome has that web page preloaded into its context window so when you're a user and you're using chat tb or where i'm using claude or i'm using gemini i uploaded a document and then i start query things around that document now when you're on a webpage page when i'm on a webpage page and i asked like when is jordan bot is coming back from his injury at the weekend because one of my guys he's want my quarterback back out joe not jordan joe burrow is it joe i always get his name joe burrows he's one of my guys jordan love it's jordan love joe burrow you you're combined okay green bay bastards in the i have ing quarterback here it's fine right and so i wanna go find out how he's doing my man had a bit of an injury last week he came off that's you know bad for him turf it's not gonna be good and i go to the web page and i don't need to read it anymore because it preload the web page into the context window i can just ask gemini i can say build me a table of joe burrows injury record and tell me how long it usually takes them to come back from injuries and so in that way i don't need to click on things much anymore but even when i wanna do some research and visit all of these webpage pages i don't need to read them anymore this is amazing so what i'm talking about here is i've gone because i really care about ten team building ideas for any group which obviously you care a lot about obviously yeah anyone knows me i don't care and so i'm like oh i just really wanna consume this page this is one of the few web pages i even visit anymore because i get all of my answers from ai and you see what's happening right i have a little box now up on the top right corner and it is gemini in my browser preloaded with this webpage page and i can just start to talk to it about this webpage page it's opening web pages right yeah this demo that we're looking at opening additional web pages based on what you're answering it but you're not browsing to any of them right it's basically opening them using the data from them to power this one chat you're still in right right remember we used to go like query go to page skim page no that's not that go back query go to page skim page no that's not net go back and all of us seo were like wow look at the amount of traffic go again now i'm like i go to page and i query about that i'm like i got ten follow ups and it's not just the fact that i can do the follow ups in gemini what's actually fascinating is google have this product called ai max and we should do a whole show actually on ai max ai max is a paid product where the ai crafts all of the paid advertising for you we at all you need to do is budget and it's figuring out where you should go based upon intent and ai mode and ai overview are part of that so intent is really important because keywords used to be the thing that would trigger an ad but clicks are going down but questions are going up i ask way more questions now than i used to yeah really more questions and so this is great for google because if i can monetize question volume and intent in this little box i'm making more money yeah the publisher is not getting any organic traffic but this is cool for me right and so what it's doing is it's going to actually tell you the questions you should ask so it's actually gonna prompt for you what's fascinating about this karen is it creates this crazy paradox where if you're a publisher you're gonna get less visits but need to create more pages right niche pages because you need all these niche pages to fuel these conversational interactions because what you're really showing here what's saying is like hey i've got this ai agent and it knows everything about this page i'm on and any other pages i open in my browser in this case this is chrome right and that way i can just deep dive on a topic i can keep open pages i knew i was ahead of time karen in the fact that i always have like a hundred tabs open on my browser tips like i'm new give me headaches this era is made for me baby am going to win this era either that or i'm gonna break the ai because it's not gonna be able to handle my tasks but it's allowing you to go to a deep dive on a topic incredibly fast exactly right exactly all the user really has to do now is understand how to open up things and tabs like when i'm researching i just need to open up all all of the right tabs i immediately actually thought of you when it did the ability to pull everything in and so what we're talking about is it can pull in all of the data across your tabs into a context window so you can open up a hundred pages and jen just use gemini to query those things and so the thing i was thinking about was we're coming up into winter anyone who knows and has fall on the podcast i like sweaters and so i need to start to research a bunch of new sweaters to buy now i can just open up tons and tons of different pages and create like a table and tell up my criteria and have like an actual table across hundreds of tabs built for me sorted than the way i want of all of the kind of sweaters that i need to buy so i think that is an incredible feature for users here i just as a complete side out i have to go off that like this is just a great time to feel life i have essentially a robot that is going to pull together all the relevant information on any topic i care about in the moment i'm here doing the pod and my vacuum robot just came back and dock behind me and it's incredible shout out to the mat team and i'm about to get a cooking robot and like oh this is fantastic never been a better time to be alive you're getting a cooking robot oh pas please can you send me the link i need to see a cook and robot i was gonna slack it to you now it makes everything for you you just put in the stuff in little containers and it's your own private chef in robot form oh my god shout out team porsche i'm emailing with the founder we gotta figure out how to get involved with them okay so let me ring you through some the other things i think you're gonna love and then that's get into how i'm going to transform my cooking ability yeah we can talk robots and everything else this one is really cool find web pages you previously visited so what i do is i go around the web and i bookmark bookmark bookmark bookmark see i've never ever revisited a bookmark ever and so what this allows you to do is gemini has memory so we can recall any pages you've actually been on and you can easily bring them up so again an incredible productivity save so you can see it here i'd able to pull up any kind of pages you've talked to it before and then they are really starting to bring the different systems together so they are actually pulling together the ability to do things across youtube maps calendar so the example they give here is you can schedule meetings you can see the location details this is really cool if you're looking for a specific spot on a youtube video you can ask gemini cool so i'm i'm watching video i'm watching marketing against the grain i wanna know when we start talking about nfl or robotic cooking these kind of important subjects i can query that in my little browser so good with gemini and and go to the exact point on the youtube video and i'll leave with this to see what you think so here you can see it here it's searching right in the bar yeah so instead putting keywords in the browser bar or a web address you're just typing out whatever you want yeah and it's giving you the full deep dive right there and this is a big one right it it allows you to ask more complex questions people don't search in keyboards anymore so you can see here that you're able to just continue to search in ai mode and one of the things it just continues to do is make it very different it drastically changes the way we interact with content right like the way i would interact with the youtube video might only watch two minutes of that youtube video right because now i can go to the exact snippets i want and consume that snippet without having to consume the full thing so it does really change how we actually consume content alright so google is basically out to kill per complexity it's going to really disrupt comment so here is incredible in the coming months they are going to be introduced in agent capabilities to gemini and chrome which allows you to do tedious tasks it is going to help buy things from insta cart for you it can help you book flights and so we can start doing tedious tasks right there in the browser very very cool look seo has completely flipped on its head ai engine optimization ae is what's actually working right now we just put together our early science guy to ai engine optimization and honestly this is the playbook we're using internally we're sharing the exact frameworks like how to write content so ai actually quote you plus our ae o greater tool to measure what's working get it right now scan the qr code to click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show so this all just got announced we're we'll drop the link in but it's still rolling out we'll do a bigger longer show and some tutorials on this once we both have access to everything here in the coming weeks but it's pretty wild and i think one of the reasons we wanna show you we wanted to give you a quick glimpse into the future but also seo is changing and dying my friends if you're watching the show as a marketer as a business owner if you're looking at visits to your website everything here and just walk you through should tell you that the visits of the website is gonna go down but the quality of the visit you to get is gonna go up so obviously what everything we saw from google one of the biggest stories of the week it's gonna change the seo game and kieran i saw on linkedin you were maybe getting into the equivalent of a linkedin fight with someone mh on if seo is dying and so coming off the heels all this gemini and information and the agent browsing what the hell has happen with seo maybe catch us this up on your seo debate that you were having yeah so you know there are some good conversations on linkedin are there i thought it was just people looking for jobs and trolling each other and no showing videos of their day there's real conversation there isn't like where stuff goes on as well of all the apps i scroll linkedin is my least favorite you're not alone and that actually a update a lot of people feel that way about linkedin okay so there's a really good threat here from matthew proctor and but he basically said was ai o we call it ae we called it aa yeah yeah engine optimization is a scam and he made some pretty good points right he said chat isn't stealing traffic from google he is correct i think this gets lost this isn't why you and i think search is disrupted yeah its search volume is going to go up you said that yourself it does never have i asked so many questions because i'm able to get such better answers and it's easier to do but what's disappearing is clicks and that's the thing that we should focus on he said most ai engine optimization tactics aren't new rank trackers or bs and on and on and on and so what i told him was couple of things on the metrics he's somewhat right about that and so the challenge with the metrics is if you search and chat chi to your desktop let's say in a brand new account if you search and chat to between in your desktop it still isn't gonna be exactly like the results the api will give you right so these trackers are querying through the api and so that's like one small change now when you add in memory and i've done this right i've done searches with my chat memory chat t without memory and then i've searched through the api if you want to do that you can go to open ai playground and do prompts and it will prompt through the api and i did the same query for those three things chat memory chat no memory on the desktop open ai playground through the api each time the result was different so there's some truth in that and it's also very hard to replicate how a user asks questions of an ai assistant so the way these ai search tools work is you'll prep program them with multiple ways that you think someone will ask a question about your product or service and then every day it will ask that question of chat and see if you appear in that result then it aggregates them all together and says well you're visible for this many queries so your visibility is like x percent now the challenge with that is the way you probably ask questions of chat the way i ask questions of chat it's gonna be very hard for anyone to predict and so will likely aren't capturing anywhere near the amount of visibility you really have to me that is not a reason to not use those tools because they are at least some barometer of success like i have a hundred queries and i more visible in the queries today than i was six months ago i think that's worth no so that's number one i see what you think about that and i can get into the second one i told him what my first thought is seo kieran might be dead but he is reborn as ae kieran he's you're back baby in fact dust off the gloves you were like back in all these think they know how to do search and i am back and i'm gonna mess them up back in the that was my number one take you were talking i was like i'm not even hearing what he's saying he's just you know he's gotten the gloves up off the wall and he's like he's ready to go he's he's ready out here he's doing queries and open ai playground he's like doing his thing you're in the arena dude i'm trying to build synthetic memory at the moment to see if that is a way that i could replicate like can i replicate kip search by trying to understand has someone like kip would have built up memory within chat the other interesting thing is you and i have personal and work accounts yes so if you search for something in each account i bet you it's different again because your memory is different in each of those accounts because you used them differently pretty fascinating right like it's very very hard the other thing is he's like well ae is because google search volume is growing that's exactly what you would expect to happen if ae was good that's exactly what you expect to happen this is the thing that google bring out as well actually for their core talking point they're like hey this is actually good for everyone because we're seeing search volume go up now i would argue it's really good for google because they're gonna figure out how to monetize questions and intent but what's disappearing as clicks so this is the point the reason aa isn't bull bullshit and the reason that ae should be something that every company is focused on is because google what they're doing right now is talking about all the search visits going up and trying to pretend that they're monetizing with them the same way through adwords and they're not because they're not the same types of queries and there a lot of ai mode queries and everything but in the background they're trying to figure out new ways to monetize and as they do we'll get a new level of leverage with their new ad products that they come out with but all of this to me just is obvious that these ai searches and ae way more important than ever because better time asked questions and because you get more personal answers thanks to memory and that's the point you're making here is that like right unless you're an idiot you think memory is valuable to search experience and if you think memory is valuable to the search experience then ae is a big and important thing yeah and that's why i put at the end which is this is a brand new channel that has eight hundred million weekly active users and people are actively using it to search for products and services this is great for marketers tiers who are losing channels it is probably the best brand visibility channel or one of the best brand visibility channels you have access to so there is real upside and learn the nuance and so one of the things i wanted to like stress for our audience because you say this all the time is is there a lot of difference between seo and ae not drastically different is there small subtle differences that if you really figure out those small subtle differences like the nuance that you will do much much better than people who just think well the seo stuff should work for the ao stuff yes like we know that right there's subtle differences in how you structure the pages one of the subtle differences is you have to create many many more pages to be visible for all of the long tail of questions that people have about your products and services and from uri and i experiences is finding those little nuances mh and perfect in those and that's what i was trying to say here is there are nuances and that's what's gonna dictate who really wins in that space and who does not the ultimate mind bend of this aa seo shift is that you're gonna get less visits but need more pages yeah yeah and that is counter but the core opportunity here lean into au go direct with having more pages which means you're gonna need to make more of your ideas more of your business content public and you're gonna need to parse it in various specific ways to deal with memory and even more nuanced specific type of questions right kieran right the world's getting more nuanced this to me is the best example of the first time we're creating marketing for agents versus humans yes because the human is coming to your website more qualified because they're doing all of their research and chat cb and so you want your website to be pretty dialed in you don't need to give them a ton of information because they're pretty well research you wanna give it all of the clothes and information to make sure they actually convert whereas for the agent you have to have all of these pages on your websites like really question and answer type pages about your products and services but the human will not find those valuable because they are getting that information in chat and so you've got two things here and i where you're i have to create all these pages for the agent but i have to really dial my website in and make it like very conversion optimization orientated because the person's coming and they're way more qualified and that's what's going to happen to mark right there's going to be marketing for the agents yep marketing for the humans and i think this is one of the first good examples of that happen i think that's the perfect closing here which is like au is here and real especially because of memory especially because there's more questions but those questions and the content to fuel them are getting answered by agents and this is the first step of like the true agent next step of the web the next thing we wanna talk about karen is p r as its real true state public relations i think it's back baby and i think it came back this week in a big way from a tweet i saw can i share it with you yes okay i'm gonna be salty because you traded this tweet and i did not i traded before this tweet you nailed that one i really really killed it okay so there's this company kind of a meme stock open door right now but really opened door was founded on like a genius premise which was like hey these real estate agents make a lot of money they don't do as much work as they probably should for the money they're earning and let's dis them and disrupt this whole market and the stocks had a bunch of issues the company had a bunch of challenges but they just hired a new ceo cass cas was the chief operating officer of shopify he left shopify reported left hundreds of millions of dollars on the table three hundred million three hundred million dollars on the table at shop five what team over open door has a comp package where right now he's gonna make pretty much nothing but if the stock goes up a lot he'll make billions of dollars basically so he's trading of the sure thing of three hundred million dollars for the risk of a two to three billion dollars so very interesting bet and i'm sure we'll be talking more about open door in cas in the future but this i thought was an important message here in which is he said this morning we filed an eight k to say that mine open doors ex accounts will be used to talk with our investors we've parted way with our formal external p agencies we want to talk you will hear us not paid professionals who don't share our mission so he's like i'm going straight to the people i am managing the perception of my company directly as the ceo this is what like pt barn who started p r this is what he did this is what the best companies and executives at p r really do and i think we are rotating back from outsourcing in pd to agencies and professionals who don't understand our business to the leaders who have clarity a story and wanna tell that story directly this a big deal this is a direct to consumer content right i think this ties into the trend we've seen which is most channels now skewed towards individuals and personality led content it's not branded content people don't want that they want real content it's social channels it's mediums like this it's newsletters it's podcasts they all favor people who have things to say and it's pretty cool now we're starting to see like founder ceos go direct to consumers across these channels and tell them what they should understand about their business and not kinda shy away and corporate speak like just do real speak that's how people want to be talked to no one wants to be talking to like they are some sort of person you can just corp speak to and it's interesting it's an interesting in time for p to get your take right like p is resurrected in these kind of ways where you have ceos and founders go direct to consumers but we're seeing maybe the profession of p changed drastically but then you look at the topic we talked about just previously aa ai engine optimization and a big part of that is citations and because of the way those platforms work like a chat to a claude to gemini they look at these large trusted sources which you typically have to try to get visibility on through like p r other than reddit which is like community where i think it's makes it a ton of sense i know ramp recently hired reddit a bunch of folks have higher reddit to actually get more visibility in those platforms because they're used so much within the ai engines but like traditional p has traditionally been how you've got on those trusted sources so how do you fit those two things together where you're like hey like this is much better because you can go direct through these channels but then to get that visibility in those trusted sources for ai engine optimization is it still like traditional p is worth doing there so there's a couple things that play here it's really important what i'm about to tell you could completely change your business you have to go direct because it used to be the old way of doing p is you hired somebody with a bunch of relationships for these very specific meats right and if you could get those stories placed in those media outlets hundreds of thousands of millions of people would see your brand and understand your story right now an average episode of this podcast gets the same views as an average article on a mainstream media site those media sites are far less powerful where all the power is here is exactly where you just talked about it's on reddit it's on x it's on tiktok it's on youtube let's do this we'll come back in six months and we'll look at ka direct tweets to the community the investors you know the market right from x and we'll correlate that with mentions of open door on reddit and you'll see that what he's really doing is he's talking to the community that's firing them up they're talking more that's getting them more referral traffic from reddit that's getting them more citations in ae this is just fundamentally how you build an awareness flywheel for your business in today's era do agree so i agree i think that is true and when you look at what these platforms are using and gemini skus is very heavily towards linkedin which i know you're not as much of a fan on so hopefully i'm in the results lot chat skews very heavily towards reddit yep claude isn't meant to be skewed heavily towards reddit because they have a lawsuit against them i think yeah but use gemini you'd use chat me and gemini i have one's linkedin one's reddit so they're like i agree this which is gonna work really well for them because it gives fodder for everyone to kinda talk about but they also use these kind of financial times in there right these traditional like media outlets they're looking for mentions and those media outlets i was thinking through this like it feels me that is just like p r or maybe those outlets let's not go to what's the mainstream media more they pick up tweets or or videos or whatever right yeah those mainstream media they still matter and they so important but instead of being the audience they're one of the audiences right and you can get through them through this direct method and so i think that you're gonna see this dramatically what you're gonna see is the firing of external p agencies who have less valuable relationships in less business context you're gonna see ceos going direct they'll hire some great communication professionals to work with them and package these stories on their own channels in a way doesn't mean that this profession is going away but where the people work is going to change dramatically we're doing this at hubspot we're seeing it at hubspot it's totally working so p is changing but there was internal people are not the typical people you used to have who watered down the message correct who make it feel like corp speak they still try to keep the same tone and stock i think that thing that sticks out to me is that personalities is back well yeah like founder ceos have personalities they used to get water down by corp speak in the world we live in now an ai world where an agent can get you in the answered if what you're saying isn't super interesting nobody's gonna here yeah nobody's we and so they need to hear it from an interesting source that it needs to be packaged in an interesting way right yeah exactly yeah and that's what we're saying if you're a founder you have to get out in front and you have to take an approach like this versus i don't think it matters and i'm outsourced it it's just not gonna work to outsource anymore p r is not dead but there's a different flavor of p that's come to work i love that and i think that's totally true we have one more story that we wanna talk about today and this comes from friend of the pod alex lieberman he had a post on x that i thought was really interesting this might go down as one of the most important but in somewhat ironic tweets of this ai transformation era and he's basically like i can't hire fast enough for my ai transformation is this company called ten labs that helps people adopt and transform ai and he's like basically begging people to apply and what ke this tells me is we need more humans than ever in this ai era and we need more humans to help other humans i've spent a bunch of time talking with folks about ai and they really want some real human hand holding are you seeing this is this something that is just seems like to me a massive opportunity one if you're a consultant to provide these services at two if you're a business and you're not moving as fast at ai as you want you probably need some of these services yeah this is what the the opt would have said right that there's just so much pent up demand for things that ai unlock so yes ai can help people ship much more code it can do works of engineers but there's an unlimited want for software there's an unlimited want for internal custom apps there's an unlimited want for ai workflows that you can integrate across your business but that is a very new skill set and there's just not enough humans who know how to do it i think the hardest thing isn't just like the building of the ai you really need to be an incredible systems from process thinker to figure out how to like integrate ai across things that actually useful for your business and so yeah like i think the kinda weird thing is there's a lot of talk about how ai is gonna disrupt the human job market but for ai to be successful you need more humans than ever to do that work and i think that's what alex is fine and that you can't hire fast enough because the demand there's so much pent up demand for internal apps custom software niche software there's so much software people want to build the reason that's not being billed is because engineers were really expensive and really spa and if they become more plentiful it just means more things are gonna get built i would pause it to you that we talk about ae and we talk about the number of searches and questions going up on google that metric is not a metric of interest in stuff it's a leading indicator of like curiosity and abundance and what people want to do so you have to look at that like the google search volume going up which we've talked about a lot and say that also has to apply to all the things people want to do in their business and that means exactly what you're saying everybody is trying with this new technology to do more and more they see new opportunities that they would have never considered before before ai because ai now makes them possible i could build these custom apps i can build these lightweight things i can build a workflow to actually do this thing that would have been too expensive or too hard before and that is transformative and it's opening up this whole new era of education where people are like great now i know this is possible but how do i go and actually do it right it's the knowing and what to automate with ai and what to integrate ai into knowing one what to actually build and then no one had to enable folks who actually use those new things they're really the three core skills i know that's kinda what alex the startup is trying to solve we are so early there i'm not surprised this company is on fire there are such limited amount of folks who know how to do that at scale of four businesses well you have told me that there are people who are literally just taking things that we are teaching marketing against grain on this show and just packaging them them up into consulting services to help companies and making hundreds of thousands of dollars is that right it is a huge opportunity right now if you have curiosity if you're technical if you know how to work with businesses there's just unlimited opportunity and being able to integrate ai across this businesses most businesses do not know where to start they're still like trying to figure out where do i even begin right and if you are a person you can help them go from zero to one in their ai adoption you can kinda print cash i've said it before and i'll say again this era if you are a smart curious person you should have financial security yes everything is at your disposal to have financial security and what alex is talking about is a prime example of that and the number one thing in having financial security is like being on the right side of the supply demand equation and what we're telling you is that there's a lot of demand for businesses to learn how to do ai and not enough supply to help them right exactly okay this was fun a new show here and where we got to go through a bunch of topics i had a blast i feel like we hadn't gotten to catch up a little bit let's close out in our last minute i gotta show you the cooking i bought real quick there's this thing pas okay and oh got it come on it has a whole set of prep programmed recipes and all you do is you pick a recipe you add the ingredients either the liquid or the hard ingredients in here and then you get a button and that's it that's baby oh my god this is this literally your dream machine baby this is your dream robot please tell me it has a camera and uses ai as like a professional chef to know when stuff is done okay i need to look into why i couldn't get this ship i know it's probably not available here but there's not like a technical setup i need to get or anything like that no it's literally just okay it's still yeah i've been emailing with founders we can get you on email and stuff with them but oh yeah shout out to folks who are who are doing and team porsche because this is just an intervention that just it's so twenty twenty five but also i'm completely here for it i need this this is life changing for me alright thanks everybody for joining us on this new show of marketing against the grain move back with you real

this is grant lee and the story of gamma gamma is an incredible ai presentation tool they have grown to over fifty million dollars in arr in under two years fifth million users and there's only thirty employees now grant just did a tweet that went viral it's gone everywhere because he has broken them their four exact marketing steps to super their growth and reach these phenomenal numbers in record amount of time and kip an eye are about to break down every single step and tell you how you can replicate this for your business all of that and more on this episode of marketing against the green alright kip we're gonna cover one of the best breakdowns on a marketing and playbook that ai startups are using to really super charge their growth and now we've had some of these companies on we had anton anton on from lovable these companies are growing faster than anything we've ever seen before and i think the breakdown we're gonna give you is from one of these companies and it's the best playbook that has kinda of been distilled into real tactics to show you how these ai startups are growing so fast right what everybody's is saying is like these ai startups should just screw because they have these cool ai products that's not the full story they're actually doing new tactics that is unlocking this growth the company that we're talking about karen is called gamma which is ai slide company and the founder of gamma i think you're gonna pull up his tweet right and his tweet went viral if you are nerd like us you care about marketing and ai i think you probably saw it everywhere over the internet is that right yeah because he really did break it down it's obviously they have done this sometimes you see a lot of these tweets and they're not true right there's just people trying to put best in class get engagement or things out there to get engagement but you can see that they've actually dis distilled this playbook really figured it out and help to scale their growth they're at like fifty million dollars in arr annual recurring revenue there over fifty million users and they're thirty employees like it's kind of bananas how large these companies are growing which such a small amount of people and what was really cool is a lot of people think these companies are just growing because their ai right oh wow the magic of ai they're a new tool they can do new things and they don't really need marketing but like this is a good example of a company that have done marketing from day one like marketing is a big component of why they were able to grow so very very fast and if you break down the math real quick just for context to everyone he's basically saying they spent five million dollars to get to fifty million dollars of annual reoccurring revenue in the pre ai era a company would have spent what karen a hundred yeah hundred and fifty two hundred million dollars to get to fifty million in annual reoccurring revenue so the math of the economics are what's breaking out these growth rates into such kind of exponential curves and we wanna break down for you what the heck they're actually doing and what you can go and do so given that kieran the number one thing he put at the top of this list and i don't think it's an accident is influencer marketing and it's something you and i i've been doing for a long time but i'd love for you to break it down i know because you are i think an expert in this topic influencer marketing really is native companies ai startups use form of viral vitality so like pre ai we had this thing called product like growth product like growth allow users to use products prior to them ever having to talk to a human and there these mechanics in that product that allow you to get what we call viral vitality which is people share in the product with other people a good example of this is dropbox dropbox is one of the most famous examples where i store some files i share that link with you you're like wow like i can access these files and there's this app called dropbox i should also get that app that's a form of viral vitality yeah that has kind of been done to death now those mechanics don't work as well and i think what the way these companies are growing and what's fascinating in the gamma there was no mention of like product viral vitality it's really influencer marketing and as you said was number one and the reason influencer marketing and i think is the new form of futility for these companies is a couple of reasons number one a couple years ago like twenty twenty we bought the hustle right you and i were like hey we think creators we think content we think personality led growth is a big thing we see that night today it's happening creators in b2b b have a ton and ton of audience right so a lot of the audience is owned by these individual creators and that's who people wanna get their content from and the second thing is because you pair creators with cool product demos because these product demos look magical gamma and that app that allows you to build slides automatically i will say i'm a big gen park user i actually got back into gamma last month it's so much better than i had even thought oh nice i need to retry it then they've really built an incredible tool i didn't realize that they had come on in such a short amount of time so it's a magical tool i you know i'm building world class look index really easily so the product demo is kinda magical those two things set up a pretty great foundation to start to distribute your product through these creators who have all of that audience one of the things i wanna break down on influencer marketing kieran and i got a couple takes here that nobody ever talks about one take is influencer marketing is about outsourcing product so instead of you being obsessed with product morality for your own product you're saying hey you know who has forgotten more than i'll ever learn about viral vitality freaking meta for example and like the instagram viral loops are crazy and the tiktok viral loops are crazy so i'm gonna go play there and leverage their viral loops instead of trying to build my own right right like that's that's one reason it works because you are getting the scaled viral loops of these amazing growth teams and you're taking advantage of them where they have figured out the dynamics of like oh we're gonna ask somebody to follow you if they share your story in all all these things right the second thing kieran that i think it's very very important is that like the math and discovery realm this changed in the old world of companies it was like oh i've got this ro model and i'm looking for these direct response metrics and we're all kinda competing using the same math and the costs kinda go up and it you need a lot of money now it's like you could be much more creative with your math and what i mean like that you work out these partnerships with these influencers that are more of a bespoke but you can be like hey you know i'm gonna pay to get you more followers you so that you get more followers i get more sign ups you can do very creative things that you could not do with like these very traditional programmatic ad platforms and there's are two aspects of this influencer marketing playbook that i don't think people talk about at all yeah i think these ai startups sell also are lead in to the fact that you know the personality part if you actually look at some of these finder they're not afraid to get into it and mix it on linkedin and goes back and forth zero cares ma'am yeah they don't care they're on x posting some good content as well post with strong points of view to some of the learnings here i think we're really good for yeah go through listeners are how do i do this right how do i do influencer marketing i'm a smaller company is this for me well there's some like good learners here you cannot minimal viable version creator no or influence market i think that's like a really important thing because the problem is that people who have influence cost money and it actually is a channel that you have to optimize right it's not just give the influencers your money you have to really optimize it and perfect it and so you can't really do a minimal viable version where you're like pay for some like third tier fourth tier influencers and do it for a month and see if it works and so one of their learnings was most startups get a a bunch of things wrong they too small budget right so they started with ten to twenty k a month which isn't a lot for a fast growth company and they're probably spending this on influencer versus traditionally paid ads they're overly selective on creators and messaging would get back to one of the learnings which is go broad ten begin with mh and they give up too early this is a a is a pay channel but it works much more like an organic channel because these creators are posted through organic channels so i i think there are three good learnings one of the things he talked about here is to you really wanna go broad right so he has said list credit personas with audiences that care about your product right so you wanna actually find an exhaustive list of people in that space who are gonna be actually passionate about your product because you wanna try a lot of influencers until you find your core what he says is like ninety percent of all of the reach comes from ten percent of the content which means it's gonna be a small subset out of your creators i think this is a very important point here because this a shift in everybody's thinking used to be like cool i'm gonna write blog articles i'm gonna do social media post and it's about like consistently doing that and getting them a little bit better every time that game has changed to where it's like i need big hits right and it's like i'm gonna have big hits or i'm gonna have misses and there's not gonna be a lot in between and these companies that are getting really sharp trajectories are all about maximizing the number of big hits that they can create from like a viral perspective especially on these like short form video platforms right here's the thing traditional marketing is broken the smartest companies have figured out a completely different approach influencer led growth instead of hoping for organic shares they're systematically recruiting hundreds of creators to manufacture word at scale we're talking ten to twenty times better capital efficiency than traditional marketing well we've put together the complete playbook ten prompts that show you exactly how to discover creators at scale build viral loops through influencers and turn top performers into trainers who actually scale your entire program get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show and i think the big thing here is to kinda cover off the rest of the influencer marketing and learning so one of the roles i said that's gonna be really important in the future lucy linkedin was creator led manager and so what i mean by that is this team is really your content team so when you think about it that manager is gonna have to figure out the mixer creators mh with the right mix of channels and the right mix of content formats that work for those channels and then condense it all into the small subset of creators platforms and content mix that really works and one of the things i wanna kinda get your take here is one of the interesting things about tiktok and i know this because i know some people who are tiktok influencers and have kinda talk me through how this works is tiktok is kind of unique in terms of how people approach that as an influencer channels so in all these other channels i want access to your audience so you post through your channel and tiktok because the algorithm rewards new channels just as much as it rewards existing channels what people do there is they actually get the influencers to create brand new channels and they create brand new channels create content because then they don't have to adhere to their brand guidelines or whatever they're trying to do in their core channel they can start fresh just for you and your content and they do this at scale right they might take on hundreds of creators mh and they all launch new channels and then they see after thirty days what's working in and whatever channels are really working they hand over the ownership to the brand and we know some companies of doing that thing think roy and chloe is doing something like that but that's pretty fascinating like because today i don't know if this will change but you can really scale tiktok influencer and marketing and much much quicker than you can any other platform the reason for this my take on this is goes back to the hits you and i know to have a big hit what do you need as many attempts as possible right and so what you can do on tiktok that you can't do anywhere else is just have way more attempts if you have a hundred creators and you've got like this kind of paper performance viral bonus structure for them where you pay them a little bit but if the post really takes off then they get a lot then it's like cool how my only barrier to distribution growth is how many creators i have and how good those people are exactly right there's no platform friction not every throw is gonna be a touch touchdown cap because do a very game i love it so just to let our listeners know something amazing has happened i've always watched documentaries in american football but i would never watch four hours of american football i did not know the nfl have created the perfect sport the perfect sport the thirteen minute game and so what i do now is i don't know any other results and i go watch the thirty minute highlights and that has all you need to see because it has all this stuff that actually happens everything else it just commercials and americans being wow by things going on around them at the game not actually watching the game and so now i can watch a thirty minute american football game and it's like the best thing i'm watching right now i just love this sport thirteen minutes all the fun on sunday afternoons and and then sometime we're gonna get you an american and have you have a proper football weekend in the fall i don't think i could do for but look that thirteen minute summary is is a pretty good cheat code and i'm just happy that like you follow american football now and we can use it as references but just trying to find my team every throw is not gonna be a touchdown kieran you're right yeah it's a lot of field golden feel i feel cold like that i can't wait for that little guy i think always a little guy and he has to come on and i was like okay like this is all i get to do and if i get it wrong everyone hates me and that's like your life that's a tough that's basically kinda how it works yeah alright so let's just kind of like end the kind of influencer learnings because there's one other thing here so if you think about it you have the mixture of creators platforms and content formats what gamma did really well is they figured out what really worked and created the playbook and that thing i love then is they created that playbook and have their top creators act as consultants to teach other creators how to promote gamma now that is a amazingly powerful pyramid scheme right like completely is a marketing pyramid of scheme it's awesome and so what you should really learn from this is people just think here's like my money influencer go promote that thing and i'll see what happens whereas as ga said no like this is a core channel and we believe we can be world class in this channel well this is i think a really important part to understand about marketing the more confident you are and something's is gonna work the higher the expenses to do that thing and the arbitrage that they found is hey i've got all these creators not many of them are making much money they'd like to make money a lot of them might not work but i've got so many of them that some of them will work and i'll be successful right so i can get that distribution at much lower cost okay brand performance marketing yeah let's kinda go through the last couple here because i think influencer marketing really is the big one perfect but the second one is like really interesting one because it's probably anti what most founders do which is he believes you should invest in brand before performance marketing right that is not the traditional one of most founders and the reason he believes that is because the better your brand visibility the better your ad performance which is actually correct so maybe give your a take on that we have failed this to be true but for a finder that's really hard to make that decision because you again are doing something that has some amount of time to like get traction to build foundation whereas paid is like pretty immediate i have a really hot take here i would pause it to you that the stuff in this post that he covers is honestly just a litmus test of whether you're a great founder or not then you understand marketing well no not even understand marketing all he is doing is buying low and selling it high we he is telling everybody to do in this post and if you're reading this post he is basically telling you to invest in areas of marketing that are less certain less easy to predict their outcomes and subsequently less expensive than the tried and true highly predictable ways and he's saying hey i as a founder can make these less expensive less predictable things work and become predictable because like i have the skills to like iterate learn and figure that out and that's essentially the litmus test of a great founder right right and it's like you can show me anybody who's doing a playbook like this or something similar and i'd be like okay your company is gonna be successful like you figured out you have the backbone to be a really good founder and i should say so he definitely approaches brand very similar to how you would approach performance marketing lots of test and lots of figuring not the right creative messaging and then build in funnels with align messaging and creative and i think the big thing to say here is this team's background is optimized yes and you can actually see it through the way they approach definitely see it all forms yeah they kinda like iterate and test maybe you will just kind of round the four blasts really quickly because these two are like much more can to building great products so he says get users to test prioritize before you ship which basically is you can never do enough user testing yeah a b c d d f g all of the user testing you could do to figure out like where were the weak points within their product and really started to figure out how to like bring that to life and make sure they kinda of nailed the most important things to users and the last one like makes a ton of sandwiches is i really love this which is like dog food through the hell that you own product which means use your product and keep asking yourself is at a hundred times better than the alternatives and if you're not using your own product than like question mark with any other users find it actually valuable so those two are like how you build good product my hot take on number four here is that it's all about differentiation that you have to abs ob assess about being different and in this ai world you could make a new product that is just so much better in their case than all the other slide builders and have high differentiation for a little while and if you're not highly differentiated the average thing will get comm super quick right you either are far away like ten times different or you're in a mass of hundreds of other companies the same and if you are not achieving the results that you're trying to achieve for your company it's because you have no differentiation differentiation is now at a premium in this post yeah we're in the most competitive era of software and to understand that you have to be much much much better so it just to recap the influencer marketing which really as driving a lot of success to these ai native startups ups and i think it's something that most companies whether you're ai native or not can actually replicate and i think it's a trend that's gonna continue that happen book because search is decline in paid is getting more expensive creators own more of the audience you have to perfect that as a channel performance marketing versus brand pretty counterintuitive intuitive go with brand your performance marketing will be better because of that and then build great product user test dog food and kudos to grant and the gamma team for building a great great product and build a great great market in playbook this is an awesome playbook the core lesson takeaway for me is like figure out your influencer and marketing playbook and understand that you know this goes back to the old book blue ocean strategy you wanna go whether there's not a high competition he's playing in channels where there's less competition to do great marketing than there is in kind of the traditional b to b avenues and that is really what's let them get a lot more successful so go check that out let us know what you think let us know if you're getting these playbook to work in your business leave us a comment hit subscribe and we'll see you real soon on marketing against the green

here's something remarkable in a world where fast sometimes isn't fast enough businesses need tools that truly deliver hubspot has just released hundreds of updates at their spring spotlight that are transforming how companies operate we're talking breeze agents that use ai to do in minutes what used to take days workspaces that bring everything you need into one view and marketing hub features that use ai to find your perfect audience what previously took weeks now happens in seconds this fundamentally changes everything it's not just about moving fast it's about moving fast in the right direction visit it hubspot dot com slash spotlight and transform how your business grows starting today inbound we made it to friday oh my goodness it has been a week hasn't it thank you all for being here on the last day the hotel lob were quiet this morning i think people still rise out there asia thanks for joining me today i host a podcast called mark against the grain my lovely hope off out thanks thanks appreciate it it fans in the audience thank you for listening my normal lovely c host care in flanagan could not make journey to inbound this year so asia has gracefully agreed to step in and we are going to basically give you a deep dive into loop marketing y'all talked about earlier this week but you and i have been doing it we've been running tests we are in the weeds of it deep for the last like year and a half and we're gonna break down and basically shared the behind the scenes of everything we've learned yeah and we're really excited to do because we have a lot to say absolutely we do and so quick little problem setting frames setting for the youtube audience really people who weren't at inbound if you're a marketer things have been pretty broken right asia like yes give us the rundown as to like what are the challenges the average marketers seeing oh okay what are they not seeing is probably the easier question to answer true okay fifty eight point five percent of google searches are now ending without a click which is kind of bonkers because for a long time google has been the most predictable way to drive traffic and therefore demand for your business so that's bad we're seeing double digit traffic declines as ai intercept that traffic i almost shared a picture of my inbox which is just emails from cmos being like what happened what do i do it's like an email every couple of days is basically what i received so you have that and then with that you have rising ad costs you have lower email engagement rates because what's happening as you get less traffic from search people are overs spending on ads where they're sending twice as many emails and that is make basically flooding their audiences and just dropping performance at a pretty exponential rate right every channels getting saturated they're getting more competitive things are not feeling good no no so let's go to the world where things are looking a lot better because i will tell you that you and i i think we're in the pit of to bear maybe what like a year year fifteen months ago yeah like is a dark dark place it was a we were on a lot of zoom calls where people are just kinda silent shaking their heads you never wanna see your cmo just shaking it said don't tell you one of these a lot you know yeah and so yeah but now we're smiling but we're come out the other side what have we learned and how we come out the other side is what we want to share with you all today because i think we've never been able to do better marketing at hubspot than we're doing right now oh certainly not we're learning more quickly than we ever have we're doing more interesting things than we ever have and what are we calling this new way of working we're calling this new way of working in the play loop marketing so if you miss the keynote or if you're on youtube and you haven't seen any content on loop marketing yet we're calling it loop marketing because well it's a loop yeah two because it kinda of builds on what hubspot started with inbound marketing but marketing was very linear first of all second of all like the average business a decade ago when inbound marketing was in its prime had way more simplistic business models they had less revenue streams they used way less technology even the average like twenty person business i talked to is exceptionally savvy and complex and they need a framework for doing marketing that matches that complexity of their business and the changing landscape of the world of ai the complexity of the consumer journey yeah i mean people used to just move in straight lines and now we see they're doing all sorts of things they're going in places and ways that we didn't necessarily expect or planned for it and so we need a framework that is dynamic that is adaptive and that is a loop and not a line i call it ai ad hey i got you like i have where it's like oh i've got this thing in i'm asking chad at gp if i use for complexity comment if you were at the keynote this morning and i've got like my assistant open in five different tabs yeah and i'm like literally all over the place and eventually i come back to like some common thread and we need marketing that's gonna work for that so we wanna break down what loop marketing is we want to walk through the stages but instead of just walking through the stages we wanna spend a few minutes on each and get deep into like the tactics and the tips that you should go and do and use now to start transforming how you're thinking about marketing yeah okay so asia why don't you break down give us the rundown of the loop you know you and i have debated all of this names is is this really right we had a plethora of discussions i think we landed in a great place why don't you kind of walk us through this the loop overall and then we'll break down kind of the tactics from there that sounds great alright so we've got four phases with the loop hopefully everyone is familiar with these four phases by now express taylor amplify and involved the first phase is actually my favorite and kip weird were time about this earlier and you were kind of shocked i think you would have said i was an amplify gal i yeah i'm an amplify guy so i already i'll take us a lot about you what stage of the loop you're you're like most you're new into and if yeah it's like the new disorder i asked for harry harry potter but you're an express gal i'm an express gal it's all why i'm going to so okay express is all about bringing your brand voice your brand identity your brand style to life and this is a very human face and i think that's why i really appreciate it you actually don't know this about me kip you know that i'm involved but you don't know that when i i'm not working on hubspot i'm am a creator and i run a very successful subs stack when i use a lot of ai but the core content creation that i do it's all me before i ever bring ai into the picture then i'm figuring out okay what do i wanna say and how can i say it in a way that no one else but asia frost can and to me that's what expresses is all about and then i'm using ai and i'm using all my data is that well how is this gonna resonate what's gonna get the best you know open rate based on my previous subject lines i think what's really important that i want everybody to understand is and i think it goes back to the first time i met you the first time i met you you were about to finish college yeah you were writing and you were hustling and writing and you took the day one of the best writers i know and so if anyone was going to be threatened by ai and do i need to write anymore and all of the fear that's out there it'd be somebody like you sure right like you like this is like core main to who you are as a person and instead you're saying no it's actually the part and the most excited about yes which to me is like way different than most people expected us to land here right yeah i think other people are starting to catch on too i'm talking to other writers were really excited about the opportunity to dis instill what makes their voice really special and i think that this is even more german for brands yeah but still what makes your brand special cod that and then bring an ai to help scale and amplify that so what i love about the express stage just it's just what you said that ai can build upon your own creativity your own point of view your own voice yep the other thing is i'm a instant gratification isn't soon enough kind of person you know he's i know i mean who among us doesn't love instant gratification as most marketers are you know we like the dopamine of checking the ad click the rates and the email performance and and all of that and one of the things i've always not loved about marketing is like the market research feedback side of it yeah it took a long time and it was really expensive yeah and i think the thing i like most about this express stage is i can get that feedback instantly yes you know i can basically have the data on my target audience and then share whatever i've written or whatever a presentation i've designed what doesn't really matter and get feedback from that audience like so for example what i would share with all of you is i surveyed a thousand marketers about loop marketing before inbound and i ran that same survey through a cloud project i made with all of the data about you know our lovely customers and community hubspot it was basically the same it was like the the cloud project was like with it ninety percent accurate of where the survey was survey was thousands of dollars and took a few weeks to run cloud project was you know twenty bucks and it took twenty seconds yeah that's so cool real quick i know you're thinking to yourself okay kip this sounds amazing but what do i actually type in into chat gp we've got you covered that's why we've built the loop marketing prompt library over one hundred prompts that take you from theory to real execution whether you need to craft your style guide personalized emails or get real time insights this is exactly what we're using to grow our business right now get it right now click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show i think you bring up a really good point about the express phase which is it's also contingent on understanding your customer really well and stress testing those concepts against what you know about your customer so it's not just you know you off in a corner doing watercolor it's okay how is this actually gonna resonate with the people that i'm trying to reach yeah so i think we should give people like the if you're gonna go be really successful yeah this and what would you go and do right now i'll start and i'd love for you to add i think you need to collect some qualitative and quantitative data about your audience so you have data about them in hubspot or whatever crm you're using right you also have emails with them support tickets call recordings all of that you need all of that to kinda know who they are and what their problems are relative to your company i think that's the first thing what would you say the next step needs to be i would say get in a room with your core creative team or whoever is responsible for defining your brand and make sure you have a really definitive authentic point of view on who your brand is and then i think you take that brand and style guide and you take all the data that you've just called out that we've collected and you use that to say okay you know claude tell me does this style resonate with this persona and not just does it resonate there are two outages of hubspot that started with brian der mesh when the company started and i think are more important and more true today than they've ever been yeah the first is brian would always say is like is it remarkable and he met like the webster dictionary version of remarkable is it worthy of remark would would somebody talk about that that would they care about that and ai can really help you have a much better chance of predicting if your audience is gonna care really like about something like this thing that you're making which is awesome and i think really important the next part of it is we would always say what do i have you to win the marketing internet this week what what do i the thing in my industry that is being talked about in that given week and that's like a good litmus test for i'm expressing the right ideas yeah because part of what we haven't talked about is like you do have to select the right ideas and like a filter for that is like are people gonna care and are people gonna talk about it and is it gonna be one of the most relevant things in my market this week or this month can i be a headline yeah second can can i be a headline headphones yeah yeah okay so there's a couple ways to get started with express yeah take a time we gotta keep moving let's move on okay let's talk taylor tailoring is very interesting because it really builds on this old notion of personalization this notion of hey i've gotten these personalization tokens and i can fill in these personalization tokens with cool data and my it's gonna make it feel like i know that person in some way cool data might be overs dating it a little bit first name last name company name i was trying to make it seem like your target excited deserved basic may ten years ago as it really was but it is that's where we started where we're at now is completely different so you and your team have done probably more work tailoring especially email than anybody on this planet i would say tell us what you want the digital marketing team has been doing some absolutely bonkers things with personalization i think our coolest learning is we found that if you take a lot of unstructured data about a contact so not just their first name last name company name but the pages on your website that they have visited the content that they've downloaded how they describe their business on their website and you feed that into ai ai can craft these personalized emails that feel like they could have only been written for that individual contact because in truth they were and a person getting that email responds to that email in a totally different way than a fill in the blank mad lives style email that was marketing personalization of old if we are calling us spade to spade yeah and it's really hard without us like taking twenty minutes and showing you all these emails what i would just say is i've had very few holy moments in doing marketing reading these emails was one of them yeah where i remember like very vividly like big on an email thread with you and emmy me and a few people on our team looking at these early versions of them before they even got really good and just being completely blown away i was like oh it felt like somebody was a human spent like an hour researching this company to write this perfect email yeah to this person and instead it happened in seconds it's like your best sales rep who spends the most time crafting their outreach and figuring out what is going to resonate wrote the email but instead it's ai and it's doing it at scale and so we saw i think an eighty two percent improvement in conversion rate from adding personalization email and this is not a new program folks this is not something that you know you can send on wednesday and then you try something new the next week like that is a program that we have been iterating and trying to move the needle on what was double conversion rates on an email program that you have been grinding on for ten plus years yeah is almost impossible yeah so are we tailor people now i'm not i'm i'm not ready to but we are equal i'm i'm not ready to make that commitment no i'm i'm an amplify guy i'm sorry i i can't i i i know where my loyalty live we're gonna get there in a second yeah but when you say that data we're talking about you can use hubspot new data hub product mh you can use our friends over at clay there's a bunch of other third party data sources but what you're really trying to answer is the question what data do i have access to that really gives me unique insights on my audience it's not that i know them at this big kind of general level like the ideal customer profile level it's like no i know them on like the contact company personal level because i have this information and can build a different relationship with them and once you have that then you're taking kind of a core message template and a prompt in generating these personalized emails and we just rolled out that feature in marketing hub we've been doing it very manually and very technically and we're excited to have the help of engineers to help us scale this but it's worked incredibly well yep that's exactly right the old playbook is slowing you down ai broke the funnel loop marketing fixes it it's a new era for marketers ai is capturing search traffic channels are fragmented and generating leads feels less predictable than ever before hubspot loop marketing playbook will guide you through this unprecedented disruption it's the system your marketing team should use to move faster connect deeper and gross smarter the modern growth playbook for the ai era built by hubspot designed for today's marketer get the loop marketing playbook at hubspot dot com slash loop dash marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind okay so this is the i would say the step that you get the most benefit of immediately is tailoring big bobs that you're good data i think you're ready to call that out and that's why we've been banging the drum about data for a while now i agree that but if you have the data i think that you can see some great stuff here okay so we we have a lot of time on it we know we gotta give amplify a few i know get so okay well give kim amplify well i as as i said i'm a self profess fan of the amplified because i believe distribution is undefeated and that when all else fails like get your message in front of people and as long as your message isn't terrible you will win well your message isn't terrible because you've expressed it well and you've tested it i see i see what you're doing there i like it i would say that you know more about ai engine optimization than ninety nine percent of the humans on this planet you've spent a lot of time doing it are citations in per complexity in chat gp thanks to the work you and the amazing team we're doing are going up up and up yep everybody here is like okay i wanna do that what do i need to do yeah so for everybody in the room and everybody watching give us an ae crash course because it's one of the most important parts of amp amplify we'll i'll talk about a couple of other parts but i wanna make sure we get to aa yeah well i will just say it that it is a very nice compliment aa is also very nascent so if you are overwhelmed or nervous or simply don't know what you're talking about well the good news is it us no one dies yeah i know a little more but i still don't know about because it's changing all the time it's a very new field so that's just my little disclaimer like please feel like you can dive in here and and catch up very easily the cool thing about aa is that it breaks down into many of the same pillars that seo did different techniques different tactics and some of the underlying wise are different but i like to think about it as your content tactics your on page or your technical tactics and your off site or authority building tactics i have one clarifying question for the audience because i've had a lot of conversations with ae and i wanna bring it for everybody on the pod yeah is what i used to do a traditional search engine optimization is that foundational and i still need to do that or is that something i need to throw out and do something differently before you break down yeah everything like help help people understand so i'm getting that question over and over all the time i get this question too i would say that the heart of good seo if you were doing seo well you were producing great content that was meant to educate and be valuable for your persona and that i don't think has chain tigers group now the mechanics of it have changed pretty dramatically and the the specific nature of the content that you're producing that's also changed pretty dramatically but as long as you're producing great content like that that is the heart of a good ae strategy as well and people get really nervous when i start talking about and and we can go into it like the hyper long tail content that we are now producing we have gone from publishing the ultimate guide to content marketing which is very broad very generic anyone who wants to do content marketing in this audience could read that guide and we would want you to read that guide and now we wanna talk directly to the marketing manager at a two hundred person logistics company who actually feels pretty good about their lead gen strategy but needs a lot of help you know for ab for enterprise i think this is a very important insight for everybody to understand because when you are going back and forth with an ll you're having a very personal detailed conversation that is just for you right and it's got memory of who you are so it's giving its answers based on who you are and the problem you're trying to solve because of that the information that needs to be provided to both people and robots needs to get more personal and more detail that's that's what you're telling us that is at the crux of it yes when you google something you're probably gonna get a pretty similar result to me when we ask tragedy the same question we are gonna get very different results because tragedy knows that you always like travis kelsey sweaters and then i really like christy dawn dress that i did see that a between history once i've been sitting on that for years i was trying to find this one particular sweater he wore was really good did you find i don't like the ama outfit but i like no i never found because i think it was like you know custom yeah i think it was i think it was a custom pre release kind of situation yeah okay okay so yeah so the content needs to be written or created in the way that ai engines are providing responses and that is very long tail it's very specific it's persona and use case versus here's what this educational content could be for anyone i was talking to an amazing hubspot customer yesterday wilderness motor homes they rent rv in new zealand if you ever wanna go to new zealand you should go and and check them out pro tip and we were talking about the type of content difference and it's like before it'd be like oh here like the ten different rv pass across new zealand and now it would be like no here like the five animals a family from america would wanna see while they were visiting new zealand i think that's what you're saying the level of fidelity change looks like in like a very practical way that is absolutely right i think another key thing for people to understand is that your educational content now needs to be bottom of the funnel in that if wilderness rv publishes is that they can't just publish a a list of animals like they used to they need to be and here's how you can see that give me a yeah i don't know kiwi kiwi i think they are the kiwi yeah used there because the kiwi birds the puff yes you know here's how you see this puff in your wilderness rv yeah like we how you drive there we where you buy the tickets where you get a parking pass yes because if you just feed humans well if you feed ai engines that'll feed humans educational insights without tying it back to your product the ai engine won't know to recommend you and then you're making an ai engine smarter without any benefit to your business okay so your content strategy is changing dramatically it's getting far more specific it's getting more bottom of the funnel and you have to tie your product and your business back to that content in a more deliberate way yeah make sure that you're gonna get relevant recommendation recommendations actual i would say the lasts of the three big a tips i think would be like where else you do need to show up so maybe talk about that for like real quick before we move on to the next stage i think you said it best you said we're optimizing for brand mentions and not backlinks because ai engines do not care about backlinks as a measure of how credible or authoritative your brand is what they do care about is how many out out your brand is getting on places like reddit and linkedin and cora a see lots and nodding heads so it sounds like folks are starting to really pick up on this and that means that you need to deploy your happy customers you need to be active in forums where your customers are and where ai engines are and that is what's going to help you get those recommendations from ai engines shout out to the hubspot subreddit if you're not on there yet join the hubspot subreddit that's to the hubspot shout out to the hubspot community team fantastic partner in that work okay and i think the other nice thing about doing all of those amplification efforts on those channels is that that's also where your humans are that's another part of amplify your creators your advocates like yeah very important to we'll do multiple shows you and i i'll come back and do a show with kieran just on the amplify stage we'll talk in influencers we'll talk events we're gonna talk everything but au is such a big part of how amplification can change that we wanted to dive into it and a year ago it was a decimal point of our traffic yeah now it's a material yeah amount of our traffic and our revenue and i think that can be the same for anybody who is watching right now absolutely and now that a ai engines are referral source and hubspot you can know exactly and they convert much higher so you wanna make sure you put them on a high high speed path towards conversion yeah folks coming from those ai engines well i think that's a great segue because we saw that ai engines visitors from ai engines we're converting at a much higher rate and we're like oh okay let's evolve let's adapt let's optimize in real time yeah so that's the last step here is what you wanna do is learn faster when you're in a period of big transformation learning is your advantage because everybody everybody knows basically the same amount of information sure you and i we've been doing this for months more than people watching this so it's like we don't know that much more than anybody else and if you learn real hard you can catch up or or surpass almost anybody we hope you can do and and i would love that that'd be freaking amazing what we've figured out is you need some time and some tools to focus on really quick learnings and iterations so that you can learn it evolved like you just give a great example we saw that the conversion rate from chat gp traffic for example was really high and so okay well now we need to change our conversion paths and the other aspects rail that buyer's journey to make sure that those people can become customers as easy as possible yeah if i can actually tide in a bow for us tied in this loop now you're i really get into it we saw that ai engine visitors were converting at three x the rate and so we told that to our product team who said oh okay great we need to carve this out for customers that needs to be easy what they also did was they're like oh you should start personal to folks that are coming from management because we know but they are higher intent and so we need to show them different things on our landing pages and so that i believe is a very possible right now yeah you could now do dynamic personalization just for people coming from the l which is which is really amazing right so it's this idea of like seeing something and acting on it the next day there's no longer like too you can't be acting two months later you need to be acting tomorrow if you use hubspot i would say on this of all stage you should use either breeze assistant or you should connect hubspot with chat gp or claude and use that ability to just text or talk i use this app called willow voice that i could just dictate and it's even faster because typing is too slow because i have problems he once told me you're like our biggest problem is that we don't have enough time and i was like wow that's a good problem to have that's how i feel but you could ask very good questions just like the ceo of complexity was talking about this morning it's curiosity questions and that's what evolves is about can you ask the right questions without needing a big data analyst or having to comb through a spreadsheet or a dashboard to get unique insights about a tactic or a campaign yeah and then the biggest thing is you need to take that lesson share that with your team share that with your ai tools so that it's just part of how you do marketing going forward you can kinda close the loop and you learn you get that compounding benefit from doing it better every time yes going forward yeah well you close the loop and then you restart the next loop smarter that's what i love you're not done with the loop the loop keeps going no i will say is a team that's been doing loop marketing the biggest change i've noticed i've be interested what yours is yeah the conversations we have are very different before they were very problem centric mh now they're very much learning centric like i have learned this thing yeah and i want to go do something and scale or this thing based on what i've learned yeah versus like i'm just kinda stuck will you help me solve this problem yeah it's been a very drastic difference to me well we have these experimental pods set which i think is a very tactical way to kind of bring that life and something that certainly any business could do we've said okay you three people your whole mission right now is actually just to learn as quickly as possible and you're gonna share your learnings every week so the rest of us learn with you you're gonna have a pretty open field like we're gonna give you some high level goals we know it you should be running toward but the way that you run that's up to you and i think that that doesn't just apply to the learnings from that pod it's really brought the entire team up i think if you're leading a marketing team right now you have to find some space for the team to experiment and then you have to give them bold challenge like the whole four minute mile problem nobody ran a four minute mile until everybody ran a four minute mile right like once i'm never it running like a ten minute mile probably but that's that is what it is but don't say hey go make this ten percent better go double this yeah is is what we mean is like have a really high aspiration yeah okay we got a couple minutes left yeah we wanna leave everybody in person and is watching online with some things that you should go do immediately so go through for express what is the one thing you would tell somebody to go do right now i'm gonna say style guide i think style guide is really important if you don't already have it and if you do go back to it and see doesn't actually reflect your brand do you feel like it as punchy as authentic as could be i love that i would add like make sure you have a section of that is like what my audience thinks is cool like what are the things that they love and appreciate that like i could uniquely deliver for them because that is what's going to set you apart in this next era love that okay tailoring it's literally getting the right data and start testing email and you'll end up starting testing i think pretty small very small groups yep a lot of human review but i think you'll eventually find a workflow that works for your company what would you add i mean i think dynamic email and dynamic landing pages yep those are the two where you're gonna see some really nice returns alright a give us the what you would go do crash course right now aa west if you don't know your personas from step one get to know your personas and then start mapping out the unique questions that each persona is gonna be asking figure out where you have content figure out where you don't and start creating that super long tail content alright i love that for revolve setup up use brief assistant or git your chat gp jim and i or claude connected with your hubspot data and start asking that data really curious and interesting questions about the specific projects or campaigns you've been running so that you can learn how to make them better the next time when you close the loop yeah and i would say philosophically like embrace the learning mindset we're all learning right now it's a super fun it's a super interesting era marketing like soak that up it's never been a more fun time to be at mark never been marketing a long time i wake up every day super excited and you wake up every day to a lot of slacks for me and and that's basically how life goes that's how it goes thank you so much for having us everybody i hope that you dig into the loop thank you all see you real soon

here and welcome to a special in person episode of marketing against grain i'm joined by the one and only nicholas h who runs all our ai products at hubspot and we are gonna break down the state of the state for ai tools for marketers we're here at inbound we've talked a bunch of customers we've launched a bunch of cool products want to share a bunch of updates with you here's something remarkable in a world where fast sometimes isn't fast enough businesses need tools that truly deliver hubspot has just released hundred of updates at their spring spotlight that are transforming how companies operate we're talking breeze agents that use ai to do in minutes what used to take days workspaces that bring everything you need into one view and marketing hub features that use ai to find your perfect audience what previously took weeks now happens in seconds this fundamentally changes everything it's not just about moving fast it's about moving fast in the right direction visit hubspot dot com slash spotlight and transform how your business grows starting today yeah welcome to the show thanks for having me man excited you are maybe more deep into ai for marketing and sales than eighty person on this planet right now yeah it's a lot share for the folks watching the show today like give us the highlights where are the use cases where are the tools at right now the fall of twenty twenty five yeah if you talked to me a year ago when i first took over as you guys know i talked a lot about how everything was really neat but not necessary i like that phrase boy things change things are necessary now and no longer change a couple things i think first when i talk to marketers now what i tell them is that if at any point they're skeptical of ai you know i'm a firm believer ai has already passed what most of us know how to use and what what i mean by that is like it's now more a limit of your creativity it's a limit of do you know how to integrate it into your work but yeah the things that i'm seeing right now is like the best marketers they have their ai assistant opt plural now and they're using those for like different jobs so like the assistants are getting really good at different jobs they've worked it into their kind of work streams and then and when you say assistant i'm just clarifying for every watching you're talking chad tea it's topic our breeze assistant yeah like the crucial kind of hey i'm chatting ask a bunch of questions kind of using as a thought partner and it even goes be honest so like what i'm really fascinated by you're getting to point out and even like hubspot team claude is really good at certain things mh chad is really good thought partner you see some people who prefer deep research over there and so we started working with breeze one of the things that we had is like a thesis is that when you really start to use these you'll want it to know you and a professional capacity when you really start to use these you'll want it to know the company that it works for so context you know for everybody listening i was talking open ai as too is as i said i think the word for twenty twenty six is gonna be context you know if i came to start working for you right now you'd spend you know six to twelve weeks teaching me about hubspot you would teach me about how we do marketing you teach me all that seven so i think context is gonna be a really key part of taught all that same information totally and i think can teach it through interaction and that's what you're what you're working on that's what most people have been done since do interaction like and so we've we've now added a bunch of like memories and all this up but the other part that i think is really gonna start coming about is that when you're working with these things you're gonna want to have it go deeper into your business data to week with breeze assistant one of the things that our customers want is like if you ask about a company you know tell me about you know marketing against the grain mh yes you've got data that it can search the web yes it's got stuff maybe in your crm but a ton of us have files and you know pdf docs all that stuff and that's gonna be what i think happens next your brand style guides all of your marketing playbook strategies i think that's gonna be really key the other thing i think is like really cool is that each of these assistants and then and the even agents are getting like new techniques like you and not talked about like nano banana bananas i will say that image and video models are definitely a theme of the moment right now google's nano banana image model google's v two or vc v three video model like they're ready for the prime time they are ready to create digital marketing assets two stories that i thought were good so there's a photoshop reddit where people say hey i need help you do photoshop on there and i just watch them and i think i shared this with you somebody was like for making out and there was a old movie billboard and they said can you change the movie billboard to say a wedding day and all these people are doing photoshop and i just put it in then open banana and i was like can you change the billboard to this day and it killed it thirteen seconds and then just on on a la i was like i took it over to v three and i was like you know just wrote surprise me didn't tell me what i wanted to and so then they're making out and then the lady puts her leg down they stand up and smile at each other again like you know thirteen seconds it was crazy and so you know you see super bowl commercials coming out that are gonna be all ai now don't if you saw that yeah like we're at a point right now like if i was a marketer the world is my oyster i can do anything and that's just with the assistance that's not even when you get into like setting up agents that are running in the background yeah we're gonna talk about agents in a minute but like i think the point you're making is like you're only limited by your own creativity in your own ambition a hundred percent hundred percent like you know when performance marketing came out you squeeze the life out everything you're like i was school i know it was also like the is like like literally it gives a battle of inches every year i was like how do you get a point three percent point like now ma'am i mean did you you can come up with anything you could tell me you could ten the conversion rate for something right now and i believed you oh my right like if i i would believe i would literally believe anything was possible with marketing right now just because it feels like the whole constraints and system so much that you can have changed i guess before we move on to the age of of everything kind of close this out if you were a marketer i'm just me personal curious and you're buying what we're selling that it's your own ambition your own creativity as a limiting factor like what would you do about that like how would you try to like push the balance of your creativity and your because something i've been thinking about of tell you some i do this is crazy this is i'll tell you this is super weird so i take my kids to i take my kids to sports events yeah and one of the things i do is i will take a picture of something i will put it in chat gp or breeze to to basically reverse engineer i say how would you describe this image and i'm learning how basically to describe these images in media and then i will go basically try to recreate it and an image model and see how far off it is and the reason why that is because i told somebody my other story the other day if my daughter who's eleven gave a speech if i gave a speech and then you took somebody who is unknown order like obama and you gave a speech it looks like we're all given a speech but the difference between those three is night and day yeah the ability for you to get as much as you can out of these models via creativity you have to work on it and so the thing is now i put myself on like a diet where i try my best to recreate images try to create create videos now really cool the other thing i'll tell you right now is interesting is like now lately i've been thinking about like a book again how would you basically construct if you were trying to be an ai leader and you were trying to construct a book how would you do it and you start to go through a process of like you would go through an idea place you would then go through an outline you would then fracture it out like there's just when you start to think about the the techniques i wanna work out my ai muscles it really changes the way you think and then that expands your horizon so that's fifty percent it right which is like do you then understand how things works and then you understand what's possible and that's pretty amazing then how do you push what's possible like how do you go like i think the hardest thing is people put false limits on their like thinking and the creativity of like how to apply this stuff it's interesting there's a debate here i'll tell you there's a debate because right now if ai is already better than what most of us can do there's two way to think about it if i go to the grocery store and gordon ramsay goes to the grocery store same ingredients two different meals so there's two parts that are happening right now there are new horizons that are coming out like nano bananas net new capability v net new capability even the avatar stuff is still net new capability capabilities so as a marketer you can spend all your time on the innovation curve but i do think there's a lot of arch to be done now in the orchestration layer which is the things that we have how do you combine those in different ways there's a technique that we do because i'm also in product there's a technique we can do too where i will say sometimes it's also nice to basically go back to like what is the problem and i have now started to ask my teams convince me that ai can't do that because what it does is it changes your mental thinking a bit and honestly that's how we ended up with all the context stuff we were building product a lot of our blog post creator land it was all is sucked and i was like why does this suck and they were like well the prompt is good and i'm looking at it and like you spend all your time prom you're like well the prompt is pretty good what is going on here but the reality is it didn't have all the context that's why we ended up building out all the context layer that's why i go back to you if you just started with the premise of this isn't good enough where is ai falling down you start to become a master of all those lego blocks and that's where you start to create some really big stuff yes then you could just build things that you didn't realize were rapport i you what i'm saying like you wouldn't you wouldn't invent the new iphone unless you went to engineering school and you know design understood yes user experience it's hardware software you have a lot of components that figure that's right i love that okay one things we're were talking about right before we started was we're seeing a rise of we of agents on websites we have a customer agent product that people use on website the kind of the initial use case for that was like for customers to go to our website and get their support questions answered but you've been talking to a bunch of people who are using that for marketing use case that's right and like i'd love for you to break down and share what you're learning there i think we're getting to a point where every marketer is gonna want an agent on their website totally more than just website it'll be every every tier one interaction but yeah so back the clock whenever hubspot first came out with chat we put it in sales hub mh and the thought was okay people when they wanna chat will wanna buy something and that turned out to be terrible terrible assumption so then we were like okay it must be support but for the last few years i would always talk to the customers and many of them would still basically say this is here to answer marketing questions so when we came out with customer agent and it did tier one support i was asking some of these i was like what happens if somebody wants to answer ask something that's not hey something's broken i'm unhappy and they were like yeah i love that so then we started watching the conversations it was wild watching customers they would ask support issue and maybe it's because they didn't buy the right thing think about it i come to hubspot they like call phone sales hub and i'm like hey you know why can't i go you know send an email off and it's like because you didn't have this product so is that a support issue is that a sales issue really hard to know do it's hard to do hard anybody to know so a of our customers said we wanted to answer kind of pre sales questions and so we opened it up so now it's not the knowledge based now it can consume websites all sorts of material and we started seeing the number of marketers at this start to grow and so i was like this is fascinating let me call them up and so like one recently i just had they said listen we're watching our customers and they're coming and they're asking tons of like they're doing a research yeah and it's just less effort than clicking around in our navigation and he said i don't have any data to back it up he said but i believe in my heart of hearts that they would have left and gone and got the answers from a competitor yeah i i think that's what we're getting at it's like one of the things that's been a theme of in inbound this week is like getting visits to your websites harder so the every marketer is gonna wanna do everything possible to keep the visits they do get there and have that engagement high and the other thing we're talking about is just like it's easier and it's much lower commitment there are no stupid questions to agent right i can ask the dumbest thing that's right like why is this cost so much how did this work for me or i don't even understand what this acronym is explain it to me and you wouldn't do that to a real person a lot of people would because they'd be afraid of looking stupid or pressure like i mean honestly like yeah we talk about like marketers we call it a funnel for a reason everything travel do stuff right so like you know when you guys when y'all were doing the marketing experiments for yourself and you guys had the avatar talking to a real human was like four minutes or less and talking to the avatar was like eight minutes yeah we just for context we had like an ai avatar that was like video or text on the site and you could just either talk or text or or you know or typed with a over eight minutes of engagement time and i was like what why is it i first saw saw started i was is slow was not i was start like is it delayed answers but no it's like when it comes down to is it's like super clear it's high pressure if i'm a rep and i answer the phone i mean i i'm measured on how many meetings i booked mh so when you're talking to me i'm like oh my god yeah kip what a great question here's the answer would you like to book a meeting that's pressure and i think that in a world where we can better serve our audience especially we're like the you don't have to have a human on there like there's a lot marketing techniques that are gonna happen there as well i completely agree real quick the smartest marketers i know are using ai agents to handle the heavy lifting but here's the thing you need the right prompts to make it work we've put together twenty two chat gp marketing agents that'll handle everything from competitive analysis to customer feedback analysis these agents work like a marketing team in your back pocket you can get it right now scan the qr code or click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show the other thing that we just pulled off that i think is need is so we've now made it so that customer agent can handle pre sales i think a lot of marketers are gonna wanna handle that we've made it so it can identify a lead does all the qualification stuff you could to teach it how to qualify but if they want to they can route to a rep it can book on a rep calendar but if they don't want to then what happens now is we've made it so that the marketer then can pass that off to another agent the prospecting agent so what happens is you know you talk to it you basically say no i wanna meet with anybody right now it takes all of that conversation gives it over to the prospecting agent who goes and does more research on your company and then it reaches out says you know hey i'm you know it depends on which rep you assigned but hey nicholas i saw you you know we're asking questions let me know if you have any stuff hey did you see we just did this mh it's pretty cool like the fact that agents are handing off to agents is gonna be wild yeah first of all agent's agents so i think we'll probably be a big theme of twenty twenty six like that's a like forward looking aspect here just now starting in the fall but next year will be a big thing the follow to that is like you're kinda letting the dirty little secret out that in the ai world marketing is eating more of the sales process and no doubt like a marketer is just going to have much more influence over the sales process and ownership over the sales process than they did a year ago apps solution you agree with that yeah and i and i don't think the salespeople people honestly care no i think the stuff the sales salespeople people don't wanna do can you imagine right now you go to our sales team and you say hey real quick all your aes i'm gonna go ahead and get them flush with meetings and so you can hit your quota they'd be like yes well and you're doing that by doing all the stuff that they don't wanna do it's like oh mister missus sales reps you are out on vacation and i can have an agent handle the meeting booking for you instead of having your manager totally like an hour a night try to play a catch up like that is a game changer well also and like an sdr role is a tough role you know an sdr role it's like going into boot camp to try to get into like a job you know it's like alright man we're gonna put you on the phones for a year if you make it you might get you a sales job like if the marketing team could handle that level of scale i think that would also be amazing as well so it's it's i'm pretty excited man like there's a white space right now that's the biggest thing that you and i've talked about two years ago no white space though was super mean it was hard it was hard there's a lot of white space right now yeah and it goes back to what we started the conversation with it's like you're really only limited by your creativity and your ambition because it's not just with ai it's with anything just like where you even decide to focus and play with the ai ai there's just way more opportunities like totally we've seen that in the themes of this week like the rise of ae to disrupt traditional search engines the rise of influencers like so many new channels so many new ways to think about marketing all these ai tools that make video images participating on insta youtube all of these channels much more cost effective yep it's while what's possible unbelievable like we're running experiment we're redoing traditional produced video ads and then ai video ads and like the ai video ads are gonna do well hey listen y'all did another experiment that i think is interesting the other thing i think it's fascinating name too is like having generational changes right now so another thing if i was a marketer i'd be watching how you did social a while back is different you know you see that with ours we're doing more slang you're doing more like kinda a reverence a less professional more personal i think the thing that's gonna happen is that right now going back to like the ai generated videos i think people will know and as long as you're not trying to hide the lead like i think that yeah there's art to that as well and i think there's gonna be a world where like yeah being able to get the most out of these systems is gonna end up being like it's gonna be a new genre is all i'm saying like people are gonna basically look at this be like that's cool the old playbook is slowing you down ai broke the funnel loop marketing fixes it it's a new era for marketers ai is capturing search traffic channels are fragmented and generating leads feels less predictable than ever before how spots loop marketing playbook will guide you through this unprecedented disruption it's the system your marketing team should use to move faster connect deeper and grow smarter the modern growth playbook for the ai era built by hubspot designed for today's marketer get the loop marketing playbook at hubspot dot com slash loop dash marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind well the thing i would pause to everybody watching is the last fifteen years there was this like market efficiency where there was not enough information in the world and so people of businesses needed to write a lot of text yep and create more information and now ll have largely fixed that let market efficiency is still true with video there's still lay less video about things that people care about totally than people want totally and as ai makes it much easier to create this video you're gonna see a landslide of video over the next five years i'll say another b thing i think is gonna change vast majority of b b companies when i talked to him in the past would quickly b that they're not entertaining yeah and i would say okay they're like we do informational videos and it was almost like b did entertaining b to didn't i think that's also gonna go away like i think that while you're on social i think entertainment is gonna be another engagement channel on social so you can be informational you can be on youtube and have your how to's but if you can find a way to entertain it's gonna be awesome and so if you think about the world of entertainment we watch now some people like horror some people like drama some people like a history i think it's gonna be that varied i think gonna be varied i think you're not wrong in that like there will be some b b companies doing like crazy entertaining thing totally like what's the guy that works for us max oh yeah it's a brilliant he doesn't work us he's brilliant like when he would do like hubspot how to videos that's incredible yeah like you could see like a b soap opera you could see like a b b horror did you see the the other thing you see the commercial where they like we're making fun of all the b software i did that love that that was so all they catch every logo and it had like it's cool little phrase but that's just gonna be commonplace yeah i would say the last thing to close out that we don't talk enough about this is we're giving you the expert stuff right now is that ai makes that cost of creating so low and so scalable for information that you could now do things at a scale you never be able to like if you were a company and you had like a hundred target accounts like you say we're enterprise company this is where i would be mad use ai to basically do like an acquired level podcast yes it's deeply research three hours long yeah perfectly like yeah produced for each of those hundred companies that's right and you could do that in months that's right this it's and people don't get this like some of our product team wanna talk about it they're like you know people don't need another podcast there's two problems with this at first i said and i i'll say this to listeners if you think about everything in the way the game is played right now remember the rules are changing so in a world where everybody just goes to spotify or apple music they pick one of the five number ones and they listen to that every day you're right very hard to knock off one of those that is not the way i'd be doing it right now the way i would be doing it right now is like watch this so take what you just said a hundred accounts i've done a very deep well research podcast to put it together then basically you can now have a rep reach out and say hey kit man i know we talked about x y and z i think this is really worth your listen yeah now and by the way every company in that category would be obsessed with that podcast all their competitors totally everything but i'm even saying that didn't even have to scale what does it look like whenever podcast level quality becomes product marketing material that's the point that's the point that at the point i'm trying to make i think what you and i trying to leave with the listeners is the rules are changing yeah and there's new fields to play on and you win the game by making the rules up totally and so create a new game make your own rules and we're trying to give some practical examples how to do that i think the big takeaway from being at the event here is that the technology is caught up with the hype there's a lot more that is possible we're at an inflection point now yes where it's it's no longer the just neat now there are parts that are necessary right a point today where it's not six finger mon atrocities now it's basically better than any photographer that you can go get and we're at a point right now where if you have creativity it's beyond like what most marketers have flex than a while like you know this is a brand new paradigm and it's a game where if people don't wanna get out on the pitch in practice there gonna be some losers they are and your put as the people who are gonna be left behind her gonna be big loser and that's why i say i know it sounds super silly but i literally was just this weekend i saw a very complex thing at a gym and i was like how they make that so i basically do and i'm you just have to work on these muscles and it helps you understand all sorts of things i think now to kinda close out like i think you could literally just with ai yourself find the best hundred ads in the whole world now that's right that is good reverse engineer that's practically the whole thought process between the best hundred ads in the world and at the end of that you're probably a better creative yes been like ninety nine percent of people that's what i was trying to say because the other catapult so i i would love to be like their mentor because they go i couldn't recreate that i'd say why didn't they say well ai be no i don't know let's talk a little minute you know because lot options they're like why i don't have their brand or style guide that would be an example of missing contact yes and you could go figure that out there's a whole path to go figure that out you know they're like i don't have those kind of sponsor type arguing i'm like there's a whole way you could learn to just talk you'll go learn about how typo and then ai will make you a custom fight that's exactly right you know anyway of course year you could become a world class creative that's believe i'll say the last thing the story that the most kind of point you thing that i love was my kid was trying to start a little idea and so i'm practicing all the time so we're in the car i used the low latency voice model i'm talking to jim and i with them yep and we're talking about business ideas and i can just see he doesn't even know how to talk through the ideas that's muscles yeah so we're working do that and then we get an idea where he's gonna coach little kids he's a freshman i said he'll coach little kids in football so then he was like what do i do next and so then i said what do you think you doing so now it helps make a plan and so then he was like what i i was so you learn how to break it down and then you go deeper and deeper and deeper and so then it finally got to a point where it he was like we have to make creative and he was trying his best to use gemini i's free model and that was driving him nuts and this was a very clear moment in time where i have the expensive paid version he has the free he believes that it sucks yes and until he sees that the new waves are gonna be better that's the cap of his limitation so i showed him that you can now go make this stuff and i made it it's awesome we got it on facebook he's got him a little class going now like so it's like base that's like things that where you just go through this and it wasn't anything other than you just gotta grind out those muscles over and over and over again so that's what i would tell her everybody i to do is like this is time to have a growth mindset and a learn mindset i love it that is the perfect notes and don thank you all for watching this is a really exciting time to be in marketing to be an ai you're seeing agents on websites be really effective you're seeing the assistants get really good you're seeing the creative tools really kind of have endless possibilities yeah so great conversation thanks for joining us nick we'll see you time and marketing against the greg appreciate it cheers

the ceo of microsoft a trillion dollar business just give away his four most powerful prompts that he uses on a daily basis to make him an incredible ai enabled leader well i have made some updates some tweaks some minor edits to those prompts to make sure they are usable for all of you and we are going to go through those prompts on this show and show you how ai enabled leaders like sat are able to use ai to get way more done and to 10x their productivity all of that a more this episode to market against the green here's something remarkable in a world where fast sometimes isn't fast enough businesses need tools that truly deliver hubspot has just released hundred of updates at their spring spotlight that are transforming how companies operate we're talking breeze agents that use ai to do in minutes what used to take days workspaces that bring everything you need into one view and marketing hub features that use ai to find your perfect audience what previously took weeks now happens in seconds this fundamentally changes everything it's not just about moving fast it's about moving fast in the right direction visit it hubspot dot com slash spotlight and transform how your business grows starting today so let's get into smart medium and prep so here is the prompts so basically it says based on my email history let's do kip one thing i will just say is this may not work very well for me because i'm very much a slack person and so i may have some email history but all of my stuff is really on slack our share documents but we should say in particular project documents and any one on one documents what are five topics they'll likely want to discuss so you wanna make sure you have connectors i have web search g drive gmail calendar and asana which is a really great one right so then i can get all my project materials and then you have these connectors that i can connect i can connect it to huntsville hubspot based on my email has through a kit and our shared documents particular your project documents at any one on more documents what are five topics that likely you wanna discuss so what this is really helping you do is get ready for your one on ones how many times do you have a one on one there's no real clear agenda what's the point in even doing that this way you can actually pre what are the most important things you talk about you wanna make sure you have some connectors here so i have web search g drive i gmail search i calendar search i have a asana hubspot so cloth has access to all of these things now we can basically say in particular any project documents or anyone on documents using my google drive and asana you can tell which ones you want but this is one of the ones that sat uses to make sure he's prep for his one on ones so let us run this okay so it's back has done a really good job so it's kinda pull out some of the things that kevin and i might wanna talk about you know we have our big event inbound twenty twenty five starting this week september the second it's in san francisco and so there's a lot of back and forth around the kind of impact of movement san francisco budget things like that so there may be items that kip wants to discuss here let's pull that some of the ones we also wanna go really big on ai so based upon some of the board meetings we've had strategic documents how do we go faster with our ai strategy how do we make sure breeze ai our incredible tool is integrated into marketing initiatives so we are using it we have a really great surround sound ai engine optimization strategy that's working really well and we want some updates on that and then internal ai adoption and agent vision for twenty twenty five is a thing that we are talking about right now it's got a bunch of different things that it's polite and that means that i am really prepare for any meeting so anyone you have a meeting with you can run this prompt and you can get all of the details you need to make sure you're prepped now let's move on to the next one the next one is a real project status so let's say we want to review your project review our project communications and we should give it a project right let's review all project communications for marking against the green from the past eight weeks and draft an update with kpis blockers and questions i should prepare for now if you're going into a meeting and you have to prep for a project update then this is another really great one right that you can make sure that you are prepped with everything you need be prep then it's just a simplistic prompt so let's run this one okay so here it basically we'll pull out your goals it can pull out your current performance indicators so it's here it's pull that my episode frequency the content focus which is really good guest pipeline that we book through we have a great episode coming by the time you'll see this we'll have released the episode with ant anton the founder of lovable goes through the key blockers and issues so we talk about the growth plateau concerns youtube as a grind youtube challenge transition missing some potential discovery subscriber growth opportunity that was true cross promo content saturation risk because there's a lot of ai questions to prepare for again and think about this for your own project we go in and we say well basically are we on track what's our status how are we differentiate so gives you like the right questions to prepare for talks about your budget and resources so just goes through this whole prep of all of the things you need to know to the prep for any kind of project and that's based upon the single prompt that we just run right alright so that was a real project status let's get into deadline reality checks so basically what you wanna know for your projects are based on our project docs and recent emails what's your probability we hit our deadline of september let's say so basically what you wanna do is you want to ask about the project docs the recent email updates you wanna say what's the probability we'll hit a certain deadline and then you wanna give it the actual project and so we're going to run that and what this allows you to do is see like our projects actually going to hit the deadline that we set them okay so what if we done now again it searched across all of the connectors and then has told me how probable this project is likely to hit if you think about the way that i'm using ai like sat yeah i basically got all the details i need for my one on ones then i can go in and i can get all of the project statuses so i'm ready for any meetings that i have or columns that i need to do around these projects then i basically can actually go and say well what projects are even gonna hit their deadline and so what it does is it will come back with a probability score then let's say what are the positive indicators like we're making positive progress towards this deadline it talks about the risks that it's fine which are really good talks about some of the organizational challenges scope concerns and then critical path what we must complete by october for this to be successful recommendations to improve that probability so it's figured out like what are the things you actually need to do to make sure you're on track to hit that and then what is the most likely outcome you would likely achieve a partial launch by october but mainly in november for full feature parody key question for leadership would you prefer limited but functional october launch or a delayed to november so in this way i can actually make sure that we know if projects are going to hit or not like that's pretty cool right so that's three ways that sat is using ai each and every day let's move on to the fourth real quick i'm giving you my ultimate four prompts that keep me organized and on top of everything as a business leader these help me prep for meetings faster get real project updates instead of fluff and actually know if my deadlines are realistic i use these every week there game changers for staying productive without the overwhelm you can get it right now click the link in the description below now let's get back to the show the fourth is a pretty great one actually the fourth is are doing work just in meetings so analyze my calendar in email for the past month tell me how i'm actually spending my time and how i could be more productive again i would love it if this was slack was included but it's not at the moment and so let's run this for me and see what it actually says and so again what we're doing here is an ai enabled leader is where having an ai try to help us be more productive and show us how we can be more productive okay so now it's analyzed how my week has gone this is actually pretty incredible so let me talk a little bit about how i would use this prompt so again this is a very simplistic prompt i think one of the things you want to do is be really rigorous about how you use your google calendar i am but i looking at i know i can be much better so when i run this prompt i can get real analysis and so what i mean by that is the average time maintenance i use my calendar for everything right so if i have an hour that i'm doing work it will be a block in my calendar so it's canon all of that as medium time but i don't if it's like in the evening time right so i work quite late at night as well for two to three hours but because that's quite late at night i don't tend to put that block in my calendar and i should because i want to get that picked up because that has actually core work time and i don't always actually put the blocks where i'm working on something in my good calendar and so i wanna make sure i do because it's not picking up all of the work i do and so that's lesson number one is put everything very a good calendar that's my big initial takeaway here is wanna make sure everything is in the google calendar even when it's just blocks like i do really put blocks in there but usually only time when i think someone might try to book over it with a meeting now i'm realizing realizing no matter what time of the morning don't what time the evening or whenever i should put that roadblock in the meeting peak meeting day is friday it's not true again it's just because of the way i do the blocks of work lightest meeting day is monday i say so what anyway that's my learning there this is really good this is why i want to make sure that i'm actually marking all of this out correctly because it does show you you know work time meetings and collaboration leadership activities strategic initiative though this is actually really useful for me i definitely tried to cut down in one of ones i'm very different from most people where i for the most part want all meetings to be action based and everything else to be async and so what i try to always do is in meetings actually be working on something with someone like solving problems is going through something now we do do one on once i think one of one's are important but for the most part my model is quite simplistic if that's like updates i try to get a async via and then everything else we do together is kind of actually doing work but it gives you pretty good categorization here email management again my email is gonna be quirky for me because i do really lean heavily into slack so it has like a monthly email volume this is quite low actually i think it's there's many more emails it has not picked up on totally hawk size there's a significant backlog log quarter of a million emails goes through some email types it hasn't really picked up everything but it's picked up some but this is only a single thread so that's really not a key email type meeting coordination that's just me sending people loop in my ea but this is cool you show your strengths protected focus time i actually have even better focused time because i again work very late evenings usually nine to half eleven which is not for the faint hearted but that's just the way i do it and so that hasn't really included that strategic balance and then external engagement so has like talks about the strengths and then what are my challenges meet an overload i would say that this is like some days but not old days i think one of the things i could do better here in the prompt is ask it to delineate between blocks where i actually use the title focus work time because these meeting days a lot of it is because i've big blocks of focus work time this one is really good i actually agree with this many thirty minute blocks know the life deep think i really struggled with meet in thirty minutes meet in thirty minutes and that thirty minutes i just find i'm totally unproductive i don't really know what i can do in thirty minutes time and so i just do calms and catch up in slack it's not a good time i so i think that fragmented to schedule is like pretty good email backlog two hundred and fourteen thousand and emails suggest attention context switching this is a big thing for me i i'm across a lot of different things it's funny that it's picked up on on this actually it's pick up on the wrong things i'm usually switching between ai go to market and core marketing activities so i don't know why it's done partnerships and content i do create a lot of content but it still is correct in that there's a lot of context switching going on and then it basically tells me how i can be much much more productive and it's giving me some really good advice so we're gonna stop there these are the four ai enabled prompts that allow you to be a really great ai enabled leader like sat who's one of the best ceos in the world ceo you a microsoft trillion dollar company and so they're the prompts you can use it in include gemini or chat they'll all who work as long as you have the connectors and they can access that information hopefully this was useful for you the old playbook is slowing you down ai broke the funnel loop marketing fixes it it's a new era for marketers ai is capturing search traffic channels are fragmented and generating leads feels less predictable than ever before hubspot loop marketing playbook will guide you through this unprecedented disruption it's the system your marketing team should use to move faster connect deeper and grow smarter the modern growth playbook for the ai era built by hubspot designed for today's marketer get the loop marketing playbook at hubspot dot com slash loop dash marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind

hey everyone if you're business owner if you're a marketer you know that things have gotten really hard over the last year to two years marketing feels tougher than ever before well today we are here to save the day we are rolling out a brand new marketing playbook at hubspot that we're we're gonna break down for you on today's show it's gonna give you tactical frameworks and tactics to go and succeeded marketing in the ai world i can't wait to get started and share with you all let's get it today here's something remarkable in a world where fast sometimes isn't fast enough businesses need tools that truly deliver hubspot has just released hundred of updates at their spring spotlight that are transforming how companies operate we're talking breeze agents that use ai to do in minutes what used to take days workspaces that bring everything you need into one view and marketing hub features that use ai to find your perfect audience what previously took weeks now happens in seconds this fundamentally changes everything it's not just about moving fast it's about moving fast in the right direction visit it hubspot dot com slash spotlight and transform how your business grows starting today everyone on this episode of marketing it's the grant we have a very and i mean very special episode because we are dropping a brand new marketing playbook for the ai world i'm joined by the one and only asia frost from hubspot welcome to the show asia thanks kip said to be here and we are gonna talk to you about something that i think asia people talk to us about every day and that subject is basically like ai broke my marketing yeah it's like things are going really well and then over the last year things started going less well and less well and less well and a lot of things have broken for the average marketer out there which kind of pre the need to do marketing in a different way but before we talk about that new way i wanna break down to make sure we're all on the same page like what is actually broken in marketing so asia i wanna kick off with you to help us break down what are the parts of marketing that have actually just been broken by ai yeah i think first there is way less traffic going to websites than ever before a stat that we've been talking about internally a lot is that sixty percent of google searches now end without a click which if you just take a second left on is actually pretty bonkers that means six and ten people who make a search are stopping on google as an all time high and so a lot less traffic is going to websites we also see that a lot more people are going to places like chat and claude to really begin their evaluation journey for products so you have fewer people going to websites from google you have fewer people going to google and then i think on top of that you have a bunch of people who are now spending a lot more time on places like reddit and cor and linkedin they're starting their journey with ai and then they're turning to other people and so the net is that if you're just relying on educational content to bring people to your website so they find out about your product you're probably in a lot of pain right now asia you're obviously a deep expert in traditional search and and now i think one of the best experts at a o and and an ai search and the shifts search is the most pronounced one right that's the one that people are really feeling that's broken and the reason for that is the ai adoption but it's also just that like answers are abundant now we've moved to world where answers are everywhere and it used to be that you could provide an answer and bring traffic in from providing an answer that's getting less and less true every day as ai just makes it very easy for people to get not just answers but real personalized answers to them or to their business right and that's a big part of what's happened here there's a few other things that i think are happening and have happened with less people using traditional search all of the business models around traditional search are starting your break which means that people won they need to spend more on advertising to get the kind of same traffic to their website and that that advertising is getting more expensive because one there's more competition but also there's less eyeballs going on to those pages and more eyeballs into chat gp and complexity and clog where there's not an ad sponsored experience yet right yep you have the new numerator and the denominator changing at the same time which if you're a marketer is a it's it's a scary phenomenon it's a terrifying phenomenon and most of the marketers i'm talking to they're spinning on advertising at breakeven they're losing ten to twenty thirty forty percent of their website traffic largely to these search disruptions but some of it's coming from oh well now i'm just sending way more email and so people are engaging with my email less so my email referral traffic less you know it's like all of these kind of cascading factors that are just like compounding on top of each other right yeah i think that that's exactly right kip and it's what we've seen at hubspot there are fewer people coming to the website but a those people are higher intent they're more qualified they're more educated and because of what we're able to accomplish with ai we can personalize and tailor their experience on our site to a degree that has never been possible before we have been able to do some really really cool stuff with conversion rate optimization and tailored content and so if those are the problems statements but we're seeing some glimpse of opportunity hey there's this new aa search thing there's this ability to use ai to really do really amazing personalization then what i would pause to everybody watching in the show today is that there is a path forward there is a new hope for marketers who want to transform and want to evolve and you know at helps hubspot with pioneered this notion of inbound marketing almost twenty years ago now and inbound marketing was this very kind of linear process that evolved really creating content attracted people through search and then using even richer content to convert those people into leads to your business at its most basic level that's what it was about now i would pause it to you that it's very important to still do those things but it's no longer sufficient it's no longer enough to do just the classic and inbound marketing and that the internet and the world we live in is far more dynamic it's not this linear path it's very circuit and there's lots and ins and outs and loops and circles of how people behave online and so asia what we wanna do today is kind of set people up for a new way to think about growing through their marketing and we think this new way which we're gonna talk to you about as a few core benefits and i'd love it if you could break down like if you're adopting the model that we're showing or any new marketing model what are the core benefits that the average marketer or marketing leadership out be out there looking to get yeah and before i do that kip i think you said something really important which is there are these gl of hope we talked about this on the last episode i was on but we both feel that this is the most exciting and opportunity filled completely era of marketing that we have had in a long time and that is because change breeds opportunity so if you heard armageddon and are like wtf is happening just know that this is where it gets good like this is the montage in the movie where interesting cool stuff starts happening asia i will say though you and i've already been through the trough of the despair yes like we've been through the dark place and we're out the other side to optimism i understand if people are watching this are still down in the dark place that haven't fully gotten out with us yet yeah we are speaking to you from the other side we have class hand made it through the trough of sorrow and rest assured there is a green meadow beck from the other side so yeah so let's talk about some of those things i mean faster go to market i don't think that's a surprise to anyone listening to this it shouldn't be a surprise anyone listening to this if you're not using ai to accelerate how quickly you bring assets campaigns ideas live that is where you should be starting new marketing methodology or not to the point that we are just making conversion rates we are seeing huge huge improvements here hundreds of percents improvements in right and we've been investing in a lot of these programs our email our webpage page content for decades literally since we had a website so to see that level of conversion rate improvements at this stage of the game is it's absolutely bananas we are also seeing obviously as we are getting content to market faster and bringing campaigns to market faster the yes that is reducing cost in addition as we diversify through channels we are able to bring those costs down because obviously if you're super reliant on one or two channels you're gonna be spending in less efficient territory the more you diversify the more you'll be able to reduce spend across those channels and then last this is this kind of like abstract idea but this idea of continuous optimization that the more you do the smarter the system becomes i think that this is an area where ai really shines and it's very much something that we've been able to see like those conversion rates that was actually compound yes because more we do experimentation the better all of our systems become so that was like a speed run through some of the main benefits but kim what are you most excited about oh well first of all i think you were really right to call out that we entering a period of extreme optimism for marketing it just doesn't feel like it yet one of the things i've learned in life is you don't get to the good fun optimism side of things without some pain first ever we're in that pain that period for sure look we are living in a prime time where marketing is fundamentally changing the funnel has completely flipped on its head l and m traffic is converting four point four times better than traditional search traffic we had a customer ask us how are we supposed to market when ai is consuming all of our traffic now here's is the answer we're introduced an ua way to market where growth happens in continuous loops not linear funnels we just dropped a prompt library from our new ua wave of marketing we call it loop market in that loop marketing we're including over a hundred ai prompts designed to help you discover growth opportunities using each state of the loop marketing method this isn't just another collection of prompts it will guide you into the new era of mark get it right now click the link in the description and now let's get back to the show here's what i'm excited about great marketing has always and will always be do i have a compelling story that i can share and tell through a method or channel that's not super crowded and saturated and can i do that over and over and over again to get better and better at it to compound how good the results i get are and what's great with loop marketing which is the new playbook that we are rolling out today is it makes it easier than ever before to do those things right and it helps you take advantage and compound faster like i remember asia when inbound marketing started one of the things have tell people is like hey you got trust you gotta do this for like six months and then you'll start getting a lot of great results yeah now in the loop marketing era you can do things and get results in minutes hours days not weeks and months right and that is a massive point of optimism for me that is such a good call out yeah that used to be a real hurdle you'd have to say trust me for six months that's a really long time to trust someone exactly so there's less of like going out on a limb and trust and it's more about can i get clarity of what i'm doing and one of the reasons asia we wanted to roll out loop marketing today and we're doing that at hubspot inbound event that is happening today in san francisco is that it is a transformational opportunity and that every marketer or i talk to asia is the same thing my ceo wants me to do ai marketing i don't know what stuff to do and what tools to do it with yep and we want to solve that problem and we want to help the world solve that problem so we could all be in a better place and so asia got appear on the screen for red watching on youtube our loop and this is like our very simple playbook framework for how you actually do marketing in this post ai world you can go to loop marketing dot com and get a very detailed version asian i are also gonna record an incredibly tactical version of the loop live at inbound that we'll be publishing on the channel next week that's going to go into each of these stages in real detail but today we wanted to define the problem and really give you kind of the baseline framework so that you can start to think about it start to absorb it so asia maybe you can walk through the core stages of the loop with everybody and give folks that are watching kind of a practical example of what they would do at each one of these stages of the framework yeah that sounds great so there are four phases of the loop express taylor amplify and evolve i spent a lot of time thinking about which phase is my favorite and it might be express oh that's a hot take i know i know very provocative very hot take i wanna hear yours kip but expresses is where you bring your brand identity and voice and taste to life now we talk a lot about how taste is the great differentiator in the age of ai because that's what makes your brand feel authentic and resident and so this is where you really express that taste before you start to add ai to the picture and start to really amplify and optimize and so a tactical thing that you might do in this phase is put together a style guide for your brand or you know if i'm thinking about kirin personal brand i know he's built a chat gp project that is very trained on how he talks what he believes and that helps him develop linkedin content and subs content of the w so that's an example from express anything you'd add there kit i think what's magic about express to me it's it's not just your brand it's also the flip side of it it's like your customers and what they want to hear and you know at hubspot we have our chat jb and cloud connectors and you just connect your hubspot and ask it a bunch of questions about like hey i've got this idea what would my customers think about it how would i need to word it frame it design it for it to resonate with them and the fact that you can do that without like a big expensive focus group and you could do that in minutes is literally transformational to where we were like just even like two years ago yeah that's such a good call out i just used our connector yesterday the chat connector so wow is it so good good okay that brings us to taylor which i think builds on what you are just talking about kevin we're gonna keep coming back to i think this idea of compounding like every phase is building on the subsequent phases and so in the taylor phase you are really personal that content and those assets for your audience and with the power of ai you can make this content feel one to one at scale so when we're talking about those bonkers conversion rate increases that's coming from using ai powered personalization to make an email feel like it could have been written for no one but kid logger cmo and hubspot lover of napa wine country exactly but that's the magic of the world we live in the thing i always have telling people about kind of personalization and tailoring what we can do now makes the old email personalization token seem archaic first of all and second of all it's ai is bad and a lot of things one of the things that's great at is being good at taking educated guesses at problems that don't require a super super precise answer right one of the best things that fits that bill is like email or text communication yeah it's like hey i have this thing that i want this person to know about and i just want it to be kinda packaged in a way that they are going to like more so than these other hundred people and ai it turns out it's just really remarkable at doing that yeah and writing those lines that are kind of cheesy that take a little nugget of information about someone and make it feel kind of special and funny great a great ai use case so yeah i would just say on taylor asia we have seen it like we said earlier hundred percent two hundred percent three four hundred percent email engagement landing page conversion rates like just really great results with using ai we actually just rolled out a really amazing email personalization product in hubspot to do a lot of this tailoring stuff it's gonna be awesome yeah and one of the questions that we've been getting is well how do you know the loop works and we know the loop works because we've been practicing it internally at hubspot so after seeing these great results we obviously have been sharing those learnings with our product team and that has led to the development of this dynamic ai email tool and that is i think the loop in motion totally we've been grinding on this for a while it's this has been a couple of years in the making and really deep sprint the last six months to rick really cod and package everything together in a way that can be really easily understood and applied to any business yep that being said asia you asked a few minutes ago what my favorite stages is i'm an amplify guy i love getting a message out i love nothing more than getting a message out and amplify is all about taking you really quickly and well created and then personalized content and getting it out to the world obviously the biggest disruption amplify is what we talked about early on in the show the complete change of search and the rise of artificial intelligence engine optimization but there's a whole host influencers events social reddit quo there's a whole transformation of channels and distribution that is happening in amplify that is super exciting for marketers oh my god so exciting i also i could peg you as an amplify guy obviously that the silver lining of this fragmentation that we started the episode discussing is that there are so many more places for your brand to play and i think one idea that everyone can try is asking our chat or cloud connector hey where some places that my buyers are likely hanging out that i'm not already invested oh yes are there some really niche discord servers that you can be on that no other brand is on are there subreddit reddit where you can have a voice where no other brands are having a voice like there are so many new ways and places to get your brand message out that didn't really exist in the past my hot take asia is that the amplify stage where the real ones are if you're a real marketer you're creative and you really have that marketing brain amplifies the hardest but it's the people who do it well are going to be ten x more successful than everybody else it's super super interesting i think you just complimented yourself did i well no i said i liked it i didn't say i was good at it i i'm saying i'm trying to get good at the thing that i think's is the most important but i'll take a self compliment too comment below if you're an amplify person too kip thinks you're a real one you're all you're ruined like me i'm just trying to be a real one eventually hopefully one day we'll get there what we're gonna get there and that brings us to evolve yeah evolve this all about taking your learnings and feeding them back into the system so making sure that at every stage with every tactics you're not taking those static learnings and not doing anything with them you are making sure that every part of your system gets smarter yeah i mean if you think about it asia you and i for many years we've been doing marketing for a long time how many like campaign retrospective camp pain like readout outs you know i ran this six week campaign and now i'm doing like a month later i'm giving everybody this summary of it right that's what we're saying is gone like that's the old way when we say evolve what we mean is like ai enables us to get insights in near real time from the data using natural language to basically eat like again chat cheap t integration our breeze assistant there's tons of different ways to do it but to query ask questions in real time so that one i can make improvements as my campaign is live so i can get better compounding results in the moment and so that i can as soon as it's done get all those insights instantly instead of taking you know days weeks months to really collect and get all the information and that allows you to start a new loop go to the next thing go to the next asset the next campaign much faster with better insights so that you're gonna compound to get even better results the next time you go to express a new campaign or idea yeah if you're having a retro two weeks let alone two months after something has concluded you're not looping you're done now you're done in the new world it does not gonna work done india we got we things move at ai speed now and that's much faster than the old world things move at ai speed things move and loops not lines i think that is completely true this is our framework we've spent a lot of time working on it we're really excited to share it with you like i said we're gonna be back next week with a deep deep dive into tactical plays for each of these if you want a preview of some of what we're gonna cover as well as some prompts you can go use go check out loop marketing dot com we've got a really awesome page set up that breaks down how to do this but hopefully the context we provided you on today's show will be helpful in kind of learning and getting started here and drop your questions drop your comments in the youtube comments below we'd love to hear what you think what are you confused about what are you excited to get going we'd love to hear from you asia anything else that you want the viewers to take away from the loop before we jump i think that this is the playbook that takes us into the next era and i think we're both pretty freaking excited about it yeah i think this how really good marketing especially digital marketing is going to get done over the next decade and we couldn't be more excited if you are watching this you are on the very front end of the opportunity and if you simply just take action and build and do marketing in this new way you are going to be far more successful than most other marketers out there and that's what you should take way there's a massive opportunity we're gonna back with tons of loop marketing content and guides and shows over the next few months but thank you asia for stepping in and joining me today and thanks everybody we'll see you real soon on marketing against the great the old playbook is slowing you down ai broke the funnel loop marketing fixes it it's a new era for marketers ai is capturing search traffic channels are fragmented and generating leads feels less predictable than ever before hubspot loop marketing playbook will guide you through this unprecedented disruption it's the system your marketing team should use to move faster connect deeper and grow smarter the modern growth playbook for the ai era built by hubspot designed for today's marketer get the loop marketing playbook at hubspot dot com slash loop dash marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind

what have i told you there's a company out there that has grown faster than chat gp how wild would that be well that is the story of lovable we are lucky enough to have founder anton os osaka on this episode to break down their incredible growth now this is a company that has grown to a hundred million in arr in less than eight months with only forty plus employees ant anton breaks down how he thinks lovable is going to change the way we think about software lovable enables the ninety nine percent of people who cannot code to actually build apps i go through a couple of ways that lovable can help unlock value for marketers today how should you be used lovable and anton speaks about how people can make a great career in the ai world make sure they are highly employ and sought after all of this and more on this episode of marketing green anton thanks very much for coming on to the show we have anton os osaka here the famous founder of one of the fastest growing i think maybe the fastest growing app of all time lovable very happy to have you on the show anton like likewise it's it's great to meet you again carolyn you've done a lot of speaking i think a lot of people have gone through the story of lovable and i know we have a certain amount of time here so i wanted to kinda dive into some of the key points about lovable to frame it for our audience and the lovable is an app that allows you to build anything i think you call it the last piece of software you'll ever need there is a stat i wanna kinda call out which you may have tweeted about which i think is one of the most incredible stats of all time which is like two point five million sites were built in lovable in june that's ten percent of all new sites on the internet that month maybe just start at the start how did you end up on ai for code how did you end up in lovable like what was your path in to build on this company and then we can kinda get into some of the ways the changing in how we think about software today sure i mean it's such a fun space to build in and as you said ten percent of the sides of the internet there like imagine all the creativity and the humans that are excited to create something that is actually the driver behind that it's not us being the driver behind those websites but how it started was that i was cto at a yc startup and the company was growing but i knew i wanted to do something more than e ecommerce enable and the optimization around that so when take the first version that came out it became clear to me that this is going to continue to accelerate and we're going to be able to build very complex applications like systems on top of this raw fundamental apis and i thought about exactly what to build over a few weeks i have together something i called gp engineer which was a similar premise like you claimed english and then you get a working application running on your computer i put this up on really for developers where they put their product and then i woke up to thousands of people using this really videos about how to use it and this really set the tone from that point so this was to when i half years ago for many of the companies that are about letting ai create software and i had story the company around this at that point in time but after thinking about what is the change you can do in in the world around this topic it became clear to me that that developers that you said much less than among percent of the world's population and what you can actually do now is you can create new type of interface for two the the ninety nine percent who don't write code to be able to be part in this huge revolution we've seen in basically tech companies being built on the back of software engineers credit a software so that's what love mission is about it's to unlock the creativity and many of the best ideas which are among the nine nine percent of people who don't write software code yeah and that has started building company and we launched lovable late november and since then we have many millions of users and i just noticed it's that that you have hundred and fifty thousand websites that are seeing really like a lot of real traffic that people have successfully built with the the custom domains as on yeah and to kinda set the tone here we first actually spoke when you i think had just launched gp engineer because we cover gp engineer actually on this channel we had played around with that built landing page and like like kinda sounds like a way back win story like way back when it was gp engineer that was last year and so l has like become europe's fastest growing startup up you're over a hundred million in arr at one point eight billion valuation like in eight months and so what was the moment where you were like oh this is like different than i thought it would be this is really growing beyond whatever i could have even imagined like was there a moment when you were like this is something i had not expected or maybe you did expect it yeah so after the launch we were growing but i was still thinking we're we could grow much faster because this product is such a game changer but when we launched lovable it's was such a huge step up from anything else that was out there but when i was still surprised was that it continued over many many months just continued to grow faster and faster and and that was visceral i didn't think it would be like this endless growth a trajectory that would be known to date we're growing faster than ever the last few months yeah i do think it's partly the kind of you know unquote magic right like there's these products to come along that enable you said at one percent of the world can kinda code my background is computer science i was like an average code yep and you wanna create software for the other ninety nine percent and i remember for gb engineer i built a landing page now if i go into my lovable to i have an app that's around thirty thousand lines code right and that's more code than i wrote in the four years i was at university right i was like i really wondering i could have maybe stayed to be a developer if like these kinda tools existed because i was a pretty average code and so for people like me it gives me my creativity right it it enables me to be creative enable it me to build and so i really wanna dive into this like so when you think about okay one percent of the world people like me used to go to college we did computer science some of us did not go on to be great developers and went into marketing them like me but now the other ninety nine percent can all code right they can use tools like lovable they can build real apps like the app that i built and lovable is like real software that i'm going to be released for users what are the implications of that like do you think about that like what are the implications for the world that everyone has a code and assistant and can bring ideas to life yeah like can i ask you what you build so i i have built a write and tool creative right in tool it is not out yet it is like built for the most part on lovable and we have some other tools that we've kind of used as part of that yep is it like an ai it's an ai tool it i'm not trying to promote by product but it's an inspiration tool i think where most creative writing and tools go wrong as they try to produce copy and paste tools ai is not a thing you copy and paste it's a great creative outlet and so what it does is it makes it really easy to create inspirational nuggets for your audience and then you build upon that and create great content for them i love it look so well your question is like how it's going to affect the world and what we're going to see is that people like yourself like this is a really good idea and you're also good at marketing right so you can build a successful business and there are millions out there who have been held back by how difficult it is to find the capital the time to get and understand how the code or like how difficult it is to learn that skill set they're not going to be able to create real businesses and it's a huge lock speed as well so what used to take people like spoke to someone that mckinsey recently spent six months and just getting the first version of a a new tool they wanted to create for their business now that she did it in three weeks with lovable so we're going to see this explosion of good software tools and like the first version referred off like the first viable product but if you treat enough i think we're going to reach millions and millions of lovable products built on top lovable yeah and for especially people who have with some school skill set in terms of the distribution side of software products there might be like an even larger unlock where i'm hearing people who used to have to work with engineers in marketing it's been held back by engineering capacity and always have to communicate like pdf writing documents they can just go can just take down your idea of what marketing funnel or a new tool for improving your work and then you build the whole thing yourself yeah it really changes like the dynamics in the inside of large companies as well in the workplace yeah yeah we we had an off upside in san francisco recently it's our think big and we kinda pitch game changer ideas the things that will really drive the company on the next five years now in a pre lovable or these kind of tools era it's a lot of presentations and wire frames yeah and it's kinda cool because there wasn't a real presentations i call it the transition from memo to demo and like every presentation was a prototype right i had a prototype everyone had a prototype you could use real software and kinda bring the idea to life and i think that's part of the internal use case so you can prototype ideas much much more rapidly yep real quick we're giving you the ultimate guide on how you can use lovable to turn your ideas into real web apps life this guide will show you how to build your own landing pages in less than twenty minutes create your own lead gen tools and test your campaign ideas all by transforming your conversations into work in web apps plus mat g viewers get an exclusive code to get twenty five dollars off any plan get it right now grab it at the link in the description now let's get back to the show the other thing about lovable is it's not just a new tool that's allowing people to do new ways i think you're growing the company in a very different way than traditional software companies are grown so you have around i think forty five employees maybe more because i know you're growing much much faster just but at your revenue that's insane like they amount of employees you have to rev you is probably i don't know if any other company has achieved something like that could you talk to us a little bit about how you think maybe differently about building a company than a traditional ceo and a non ai native company like are there some grand principles you have that you think are fundamentally different than other ceos it's a good question i think a lot about the future much of the work that is not human facing is going to almost be instant and unlocked so that means that you want individuals to the company that are really good at a bit of everything as you generally bet on people that have a high slope so that you can see that they're very very good learning new skills and do so rapidly language which i think works well in age of ai where everything is changing very rapidly but most importantly in how i think about building the companies to build a team or people that really care about what we're doing and ob obsessed about how the team works together our users the product that we're building and like make sure we work better and better together every week and people who are generally a humble and nice you want to be able to work with yeah good at their job of course that that's how i think about building the company and putting that team together is the most important job that i have yeah you mentioned an important trend there which is do you see the way company shift because you may kinda mention that they're that they're you know kinda generalist powered by ai so like maybe a a marketer can do many jobs a salesperson can do many jobs yeah because of ai and so the specialist domain expertise is maybe not as important as it was or you know how do you think about that specialization versus general specialization because of ai it's a good question like for building software products it's very valuable to have the very very deep expertise of like if you're building a very complex thing which is a software product yeah if you do a change how it's going to affect your user so how do you bring them how do you develop a software product together with your users and having seen that many times is very useful but at the same time marketing for it example i think it's always changing so marketing in a sense is being good at learning things rapidly and being creative and what our tool that allowable does is that it actually helps you to be more creative because you can move much faster from like an idea to prototype or a website that you can put out to your just a like a marketing funnel and you can get validation and you can go to the next and go the next idea so i think i think creativity kinda actually becomes more important in this age yeah so if we're enabling many more people to be able to code and lovable and make it much more easy and one of the kinda cool things in lovable azure not just making it easy to code like you are really building an internal app that allows you to bring ideas to the public much much faster so the example is i was talking about something in the podcast the next day i wrote it and put it live and lovable on a domain like i bought the domain a lovable i hosted it through lovable and i was live within actually like five minutes you it was like incredible how fast it was and so you're kinda like really building the entire ecosystem but if we're and making it much easier for like people to code and maybe code gets comm i would love to hear your opinion in that so you know coding becomes comm monetized and then you believe that the actual real skill to learn is how you market how you grow an audience how you distribute that product because if we have an infinite number of products so some of them are still gonna have to rise above the noise because the distribution part is still incredibly complex i think that building a really good product is still going to need a lot of obsession understanding of your users and a lot of many many it rounds of iteration so that doesn't go away and it's it's not easy to build a really good part and the expectations are increasing but i it is true that the distribution piece without distribution nothing matters on on your product side so every founder i recommend to find a way to either become really good for distribution have a c founder that's really good distribution in some sense and really understand one channel for distribution with sales or marketing and it's never been easier to learn something than this year in twenty twenty five i think yeah with ai like all the good content that's out there so i think it's always going to be a combination of like marketing or sales and and both and good at a really good product and that that's how businesses work yeah i think your point has taken in that there's a big difference between prototype prototyping and a minimal viable version and having a product that can scale to many many users i do think one of the things we see happening and we've talked about in this show is the amount of software and apps launching in yep on this trajectory and the meta marketing channels is actually going done because like google search is being disrupted social lisp being heavily disrupted by ai because we have a lot of ai generated content saturated in those channels and so i still think those two skills are gonna be incredibly important i'm curious get your take when we had talked first you are like super interested in the creator space and i do think b b will look more like b over time where you have creator led companies you know you have the audience and then you actually launch software because it's so much easier to do that like do you see that as a trend for software in that you have people today who are quote unquote creators monetize that audience through affiliation or brand partnerships and now in the future could just use lovable to build an app to monetize that audience yeah it's a good question i i think consumers want to buy from are people they know and trust and creators are is someone wanna that you know and trust so you do have a huge advantage on the that side if you're created i like yourself that people know like how you think can this digest interesting information from you than from someone that i've never seen before right so that's something worth investing in but you don't have to play that game i in a sense you can play play out the games as well and be very successful yeah i suspect like one of the things our audience we really curious on we have a ton of founders but marketers tiers as well yep and you are a founder of a company that has free marketing you have like real real viral vitality like the true sense of viral vitality where lovable is everywhere without you having to do a lot right because you just have a great product and it's really the kind of again i do think there's as like real thing which is the magic of the tool that allows you to do something that was never before possible so you have free marketing what do you want for marketing like when you kinda step back what could great marketing do for lovable like what how do you think about that i think it's mostly about amplifying the word mouth which is like the absolutely largest channel for everything right in aka customer organization so that is about letting people be equipped to spread the word of how long lovable is best to use like lets you build simple websites in the five minutes that you you did care but it also lets you do much more lets you build like what you needed the software engineers for in the past and they're being able to letting the community that's out there show that a lot of people love running at lovable events because it's so fun to have see people create for with love for the first time it's probably the one of the biggest parts then it's always important to bring your users with you as you evolve the product that i i think having being good at product marketing and in running and doing launches of and explain what's changing and like how this affects the capabilities is one function of or marketing there's also now that we have large companies lot of fortune five hundred companies using lovable that large contracts everything that comes with enterprise marketing and then i mean there's but the more technical side of how we engage with our users that are like with emails and other touch points so i think people call gross marketing yeah these all not the lot functions that i'm looking to become not like per class on we're focusing on making the product better but we're looking to expand the team and doing all of these things really really well yeah i think like having someone who can really foster the community and continue to build that i'd i think there's a so much scope for you guys to do like cool brand stunt i know i was had this one we were doing a podcast episode of like front brand stunt and one of the ones we were gonna do for lovable is again it's just a certain time period to do this for but you would set up a cloud kitchen but instead of order and food you would order software and you would have people instead of like uber eats you would have eats and so for a two week period you could actually order lovable eats which would be your partners and they could come to anywhere and build software and you could film at all and they would build a software in five minutes i think that kind of stuff yeah there's so many cool ways you could bring lovable to the other one i'll just give you which is like one of the ones i think we'll be really cool for you all is on a scribe now but like slider used to have so many of the original pitch decks they're so interesting right they always get a ton of attractions they have millions of views the original pitch deck for airbnb the original pitch deck for dropbox like one of the cool things about lovable is you could go back through time and instead of doing the pitch deck you would have done the minimal viable version and you could have a creator whose only channel is doing the original viable version all live doing lovable like say the original airbnb do the original pitch deck i wanna just quickly show you this i do want our marketers to come pay you for this ideas no no these are all free anton i i these are all free for you this is all i do is think of ideas so want more i've got more if there's anyone out that i want to help make this come to life please reach out in the or or if you wanna forward it to make sure i just wanna show marketers like one use case you should think about for lovable you and again this is an idea minimal viable idea because this took me five minutes literally five minutes and so again this is for lovable and so what i did was i did per complexity to basically research and create different personas for lovable like who uses lovable and and then based on one of those personas had chat crafted to product idea and then build a lead magnets so it traditionally marketers anton would create these things called lead magnets so lead magnets are i go to a blog or i go to a website and there's like a content thing to download like a yep white paper or there's a slide deck or there's a template now what i think happens is all of those content powered experiences become code powered experiences because to your point now marketers can code with lovable and so this is an example of a little lead magnet i use lovable just for you know just for fun because you're here but basically what it would do is it creates an roi calculator so it's basically showing new user how much you can save code in through lovable and building in it yourself versus going through a traditional agency so you can just go build the calculator you can say hey i was going to actually build like this book of service and then you could basically say i was i need that these elements in my book in service yep and then i continue and i would say i went on the market ready launched what they want the agency to do so it's doing some like theoretical numbers here to like calculate what you need to actually build that app and then it basically says hey you would saved like this amount of money with lovable right yep it's trying to take your credit model and then basically if you wanna get the detailed breakdown you can sign up yeah and so for market tiers i think this is a way to think about how you can use lovable straight away which is you have the static borne things that you give away today all of that stuff can be built with interactive code and to your point i think that's why you know your marketing team can actually teach your different personas how to integrate this into their life ponder i love you show how you can use it yourself i know vp your marketing emily who who says like what you're saying here like this never accessed to engineers and it's a new a world so she's built a lot of different things like this sales training platforms and it's similar thing as to what you're saying there what you showed us right now what do you think to karen is the mindset that the marketers should have around using ai tools like lovable like is there anything you've seen in terms of who successful now over the last few months or the last year i think there is people who just have builder dna even in marketing and builder dna for me is they are in the weeds they are deeply curious and they are deeply iterative and so to your point right like it would take me prior history i wanna build an roi calculator from my company i want someone to come there and they showed them the value of my company what do i need to do as marker i need to go on like cry for help for the engineering team who are trying to build product to help me maybe i have a couple of engineers on the marketing team you know what they're doing they're fixing all the bugs on the website and so i'm stuck doing the same stuff i have to do a static pdf it's a white paper here's like all the calculations you can download it now if i'm a real builder and i have that deep curiosity and i'm ten now i could just go use lovable and the cool thing is i don't just have to do one version of the roi calculator this is kind of the other thing i tell marketers is we've been so dependent upon tools that we have to create one thing for thousands and thousands and thousands of people and because of that it gets quite generic now i can create a roi calculator creator for like small groups of my customers on my prospects like it i can create a hundred roi calculators and they're all slightly different based upon who that customer is or who that potential customer is because it's so much easier for me to do that and so i think we can actually tailor these experiences much more through apps like lovable and i think these tools i did a write up on the future of marketing and then i talked about the fact that the future of marketing you have to create code powered experiences through tools like lovable and bring your ideas to life in more creative and interactive ways and to me it's gonna be part and parcel of your marketing and tech stack like lovable these kind of tools you have to actually use them to actually go attract customers because customers will expect more and more value in terms of what you give them yeah i think every human is like a build their talk and that yeah that agencies is what we are we want to contribute to but to be able to do your job well or sort of business that leaning into that and building creating a lot of things is a wonderful takeaway yeah the creativity often comes from leaning to like trying things and then you become more more creative i'm asking you questions now about what do you think like your marketing teams should organize themselves differently given that you can do much more with less yes it's kinda where we started words i agree which is within functions you need like a code to build a real proper tool and maybe they can do more because they have ai but when marketing marketing is a very unique team in engineering you have developers yep in sales you have sales and they kinda go in a linear path you know sdr bd account executive in marketing you actually have a collection of small little teams you all are just in the kind of wider marketing ecosystem and they all have like different domain expertise so like a product marketer has very specific domain expertise and product marketing a brand marketer has like very specific expertise on like brand campaigns performance marketing all these different teams are very niche and they all have these domain expertise in their thing and i think what ai is gonna allow you to do is just break marketing into storyteller and you're telling stories by the product you're telling stories about how the product changes the world your creative storyteller enabled by ai and you can just do all of those roles that used to be many many different roles in the past and then you have marketers who are very engineer led and they can actually integrate ai across the customer journey right across your how you do paid across how you do ai engine optimization so i do think you can now have ai marketing generalist who are really in this pod structure and they can do like end to end marketing they don't have to hand up to this person hand out because the problem we're growing a company you luckily you mind hot up not experience this yet because you're still small even though you're huge in terms of evaluation is the more domain expertise you bring in the more silo it's all of the comm yep hand to this person hand off to this person hand off to this person and that's what really slows you down but makes sense so you said storytelling and technical yeah it is also the most important things and if you think about businesses building their products on lovable and us in an opinionated way taking care of more of the analytics how do you track on what users and understand what users are doing how to unlock more value run ab tests optimize the website for our discover on search what do you think is going to be the hardest on the technical side for us to like solve as of life product life cycle platform but that does everything when that market all the marketing needs yeah for the market needs i think it's going to be the marketer ability to do distribution right it's not just your ability to bring that idea to life only valuable to the marketer or if they can actually get eyeballs on it and so the more you can help the marketer deeply integrate the way they distribute that into the product the more successful the marketers are going to be because they could build something and then it gets no visitors and no traction and anything well that was a kinda of waste of my time it's i think there's like this really interesting arbitrage opportunity where we are stolen in the small early adopter phase even though when you look at the growth of your company and some others it's like off the walls how fast things are going but it still is early adopters yeah so really if you're this podcast and you are now starting to use lovable you should feel excited because you are in the early adopter stage and you're gonna be one of the first market tiers to do things for your audience using a tool like lovable versus what you've done in the past which is create a pdf right and i think this is the moment to take advantage of that because at some point using lovable to do this will just become best practice and when things are best practice then you're forced to just optimize things try to get incremental improvements yep i think you nailed it i i know as sim was is running a him and she's obsessed lovable built the event website of course on lovable and if you're an early adopter today with art tools specifically there is so much you need to still learn like if because if you're not an engineer you're using lovable you learn so rapidly you don't have to learn to call but you need to learn a bit of like how things would come together and if you invest in doing that today you're going to have a huge advantage the coming months in in your velocity of building things yeah i'll give you one other quick use case for lovable in particular for market tiers it can easily integrate marketing into the market tiers data sources we are even looking at this you can create personal websites again based upon the data you have about a cohort of users so let's say i create a little segment of users and these users are cfo at a certain company and they have these certain problems and these certain likes and dislikes and then i can like feed that into my prompt and lovable and i can create the micro site based upon that data that again speaks to what i think is going to happen which is today a lot of marketing has done broad based marketing because we have to do that because of the way things work whereas i think tomorrow marketing is done at the real granular why i call the micro audiences like today we do segmentation and it's like broad based your a company of the size your this real title you're in this country that's basically what we do me say like you all like the same stuff here's the same stuff whereas now with tools like lovable i can just get so much more customized and i can create more of those things because it's so much easier to create right lovable and i think that's gonna happen as well one last thing of you don't mind antoine just in terms of talent right yeah one of the things you're incredibly good at is how you attract talent you have obsessed over talent one of the things you have talked about is trying to hire teenagers like you're hiring really young folks o mccabe for intercom also recently talked about the fact he thought ai was gonna be more suited for younger people because it's just natively how they do things can you maybe think just end with that part like if you're not a teenager and you're not natively ai what should i be doing to make sure that in the future a founder like you would still wanna hire me i don't really don't try to hire tune just generally so i don't think it matters well like bill stay very very curious i think that's a very important part of yeah learning these skills necessary staying curious experimental have a strong bias to try things out and always take a lot of actions not the wait i think the demo of memo is i can one of the ways of so speaking about how i think people should be acting take action try things go out there validate your ideas and just doing that is going to be very helpful and that's very important part of the culture of what team were putting together at lovable awesome i totally agree i think that in one skill you can have right now as curiosity if you're have a curious mind that kip always says ai is a ba berserker for the curious mind mh i think if you have a curious mind if you're a ten if you're incredibly proactive like i think one of the things in lovable i suspect your team is very autonomous as well and i think you have to be much more autonomous much more proactive and and deep c and on this was amazing i know you have at least thousands and and thousands of people asking you to come on their show and so i do appreciate you spend in this amount of time for us because i know you're super busy over in saf you're trying to grow this business and so what we appreciate it yeah i mean wanting to sit down with you for blake before level even in the camera so it's gotta be hoping we could go run to it and looking forward to talk to you soon again thanks anna